D&D 5E Grasping Arrow and Pushing Attack on the same attack for 5d6 damage?

ECMO3

Hero
I am playing a multiclassed Arcane Archer/Arcane Trickster with Superior Technique Fighting Style and Martial Adept Feat. So I have two d6 battlemaster dice and three maneuvers (Menacing Attack, Quick Toss and Pushing Attack) in addition to grasping arrow and seeking arrow.

As far as I can tell I can use an arcane shot and battlemaster maneuver on the same attack.

This begs a question - What if I use grasping arrow and then pushing attack on the same shot? The BBEG takes 2d6 poision damage from GA, then 1d6 extra damage from PA, then if he fails he is moved back 15 feet. Does this mean he takes another 2d6 slashing from Grasping Arrow because he was moved? That would be a total of up to 5d6+1d8+dex on one attack which is pretty awesome (2d6 GA poison, 1d6 pushing attach, 2d6 GA movement, 1d8 piercing). Does RAW say anything about this and the order this would all happen?

Text of the relevant abilities below:
Pushing Attack
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to drive the target back. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you push the target up to 15 feet away from you.

Grasping Arrow
When this arrow strikes its target, conjuration magic creates grasping, poisonous brambles, which wrap around the target. The creature hit by the arrow takes an extra 2d6 poison damage, its speed is reduced by 10 feet, and it takes 2d6 slashing damage the first time on each turn it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting. The target or any creature that can reach it can use its action to remove the brambles with a successful Strength (Athletics) check against your Arcane Shot save DC. Otherwise, the brambles last for 1 minute or until you use this option again.
 

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ECMO3

Hero
Is being pushed the same as moving? Only your DM can decide, the rules are unclear.

Personally, I'd say no. The standard in 5E seems to be that forced movement doesn't trigger negative effects caused by "moving"

I don't think that aspect is really the question. "Forced movement" depends on the effect and wording, it does not cause damage in booming blade for example, because the spell says "willingly moves". This is like spike growth, there is nothing saying it has to be willing to take damage.


My question centers around whether grasping arrow happens sequentially with pushing attack if you use them on the same attack. Hit-grasped-pushed.

If I used extra attack (which I don't have yet) it would clearly work on the next attack I think after I use GA on the first.
 

I don't think that aspect is really the question. "Forced movement" depends on the effect and wording, it does not cause damage in booming blade for example, because the spell says "willingly moves". This is like spike growth, there is nothing saying it has to be willing to take damage.

What is in question in my mind is does grasping arrow happen sequentially with pushing attack if you use them on the same attack.

If I used extra attack (which I don't have yet) it would clearly work on the next attack I think after I use GA on the first.
What does your DM think about this? His opinion is correct.
 

ECMO3

Hero
What does your DM think about this? His opinion is correct.
So he probably has not thought about it (as i haven't until today). I agree his opinion is correct, but I like to go to him with a solution, not just a question -

"I have these two abilities, here is how I think they combine to work RAW ......."

To be honest I did not think about pushing attack and the synergy with GA until I was leveling up. My original intent was to get Quick Toss so I could throw out a spell (Arcane Trickster) as an action and still get a sneak attack in.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Unfortunately, there is no solid "this must happen before that" sort of answer.

I would assume the first effects of both happen simultaneously:

GA: 2d6 poison damage, -10 speed
PA: +d6 damage, save or pushed

The later rider for GA seems secondary to me because it is a linger effect whenever the creature moves on a turn.

So, the combo is powerful enough without allowing the additional 2d6 slashing damage for forced movement.

That's just my opinion and how I would run it, personally.

If I used extra attack (which I don't have yet) it would clearly work on the next attack I think after I use GA on the first.
Yes, and this I would certainly allow!
 

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
When multiple things done happen simultaneously on a creature's turn, the DM should determine order of sequence for them all or optionally the player can decide the order

Xanathar's Guide to Everything contains an optional rule to help adjudicate simultaneous effects:

If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table-whether player or DM-who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character's turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first
 


Horwath

Hero
I would say that it's a no problem, especially with build required to do it.

1. No so good sub class on a mediocre class
2. sub optimal choice of fighting style(not taking archery)
3. pretty weak feat
 

ECMO3

Hero
I would say that it's a no problem, especially with build required to do it.

1. No so good sub class on a mediocre class
2. sub optimal choice of fighting style(not taking archery)
3. pretty weak feat

I don't necessarily agree that the feat or fighting style are not optimal. They are not optimal in terms of sustained DPR, but they do offer options that would not otherwise available, recharge on a short rest and offer both control options and a better Nova.

On the character I am using them on (multiclassed Arcane Archer/Arcane Trickster) I think they are better than an ASI and archery would be. There are a ton of options I can use to start a fight.

For exampel, once I have extra attack in a Nova first turn of combat I can take one enemy out with Hideous laughter, hit another with arcane shot, both slowing him down and damaging him further if he moves, use menacing attack to keep another enemy from closing with us and sneak attack with quick toss. That is a lot, a lot of hit rolls and a lot of saves, but if all of that lands that is probably 3 enemies that probably are out of the fight for a turn (and one potentially more) and a final enemy I landed sneak attack on. I could not hope to accomplish that with archery and an ASI. That is nova, but most of those resources I get back on a short rest.

Another alternative is to blow my pipes of haunting, anyone who saves hit with hideous laughter, then quick toss sneak attack someone.

Or I could just action surge, quick toss and make a bunch of attacks with bonuses for Grasping arrow, Menacing Attack and quick toss.

I would do more consistent weapon damage with archery and an ASI no doubt, but I would not have as many varied options.
 


ECMO3

Hero
The creature is not moving, it is being moved. Grasping does nothing.
This is not true, it does not require the enemy using his movement. Forced movement moves someone and does damage the first time it happens on a turn, assuming it is more than 1 foot. JC clarified this.


This gets confused with booming blade which requires "willingly moves" and would not be affected if something is being moved.
 
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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I've always ruled that forced movement does not count for effects that happen when a creature moves. It's been that way so that people can't force move targets in and out of auras or zones that cause damage each time upon entering. But that's just my interpretation.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I've always ruled that forced movement does not count for effects that happen when a creature moves. It's been that way so that people can't force move targets in and out of auras or zones that cause damage each time upon entering. But that's just my interpretation.
I get that argument, but it really nerfs things like spike growth and grasping arrow and takes them from being among the best abilities of their level/tier to being mediocre. I think the RAW is pretty clear though, forced movement causes damage on those sorts of things unless something in the text says it doesn't or refers to the enemy using their movement.

Arcane Archer is a relatively underpowered subclass already and nerfing GA like this would make the subclass a lot weaker, since GA is really the centerpeice of the subclass.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Arcane Archer is a relatively underpowered subclass already and nerfing GA like this would make the subclass a lot weaker, since GA is really the centerpeice of the subclass.
Although I never liked the thematic feel of how they made the subclass, I would not agree that is relatively underpowered. I would put it more someplace in the middle, TBH. After all, look at how two of them at level 20 stand a decent chance to defeat Vecna. ;)

And GA was never a key power for them IMO, either.

But, to the point of your build, you've invested heavily to get the combo, so I think allowing it would be the right thing personally.
 

Oofta

Legend
This is not true, it does not require the enemy using his movement. Forced movement moves someone and does damage the first time it happens on a turn, assuming it is more than 1 foot. JC clarified this.


This gets confused with booming blade which requires "willingly moves" and would not be affected if something is being moved.
I gave my ruling.

Grasping Arrow: The creature hit by the arrow takes an extra 2d6 poison damage, its speed is reduced by 10 feet, and it takes 2d6 slashing damage the first time on each turn it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting.

The key phrase is "it moves" which I interpret as not being forced movement. Feel free to disagree. 🤷‍♂️
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I get that argument, but it really nerfs things like spike growth and grasping arrow and takes them from being among the best abilities of their level/tier to being mediocre. I think the RAW is pretty clear though, forced movement causes damage on those sorts of things unless something in the text says it doesn't or refers to the enemy using their movement.

Arcane Archer is a relatively underpowered subclass already and nerfing GA like this would make the subclass a lot weaker, since GA is really the centerpiece of the subclass.
At the very least, you are receiving a number of arguments that presumably your DM might throw at you, so this thread is allowing you to put your defense together when you talk to them about it. Best of luck!
 

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