D&D 5E Great Weapon Mastery - once more into the breach! (with math)

[Yunru]

Everytime someone does math like this, I want to cry at the time wasted.

Because it doesn't show anything in a white room vacuum. When a character has GWM, other party members will enhance that character because it is effective to do so.

So, if your math is "he's attacking the one the monk stunned or some spell restrained (advantage), is one of the Bless targets from the cleric (+1d4), is one of the two with twinned Haste from the sorcerer (another attack), if he misses he'll use Precision (+d to hit only if needed)", then you can compare we're seeing at the tables. Of course not this particular mix, but cascade of paty help (either buffs or debuffing foes) plus individual abilities like champion+advantage for 19% crit chance per attack which means a bonus action attack.

Also since it doesn't reduce the chance of crit at all (and gives a bonus on crit), it has great synergy with crit boosters (barbarian brutal critical, half-orc savage attacks, paladin divine smite, fighter champion). These can give even more reason for the party to throw buffs on the GWM character as more effective then a direct move.

Except of course, you have to subtract the damage they would otherwise be doing from the final number.

 

[Xeviat]

If multiple party members contribute to buffing one character, it's probably okay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FrogReaver]

Everytime someone does math like this, I want to cry at the time wasted.

Because it doesn't show anything in a white room vacuum. When a character has GWM, other party members will enhance that character because it is effective to do so.

So, if your math is "he's attacking the one the monk stunned or some spell restrained (advantage), is one of the Bless targets from the cleric (+1d4), is one of the two with twinned Haste from the sorcerer (another attack), if he misses he'll use Precision (+d to hit only if needed)", then you can compare we're seeing at the tables. Of course not this particular mix, but cascade of paty help (either buffs or debuffing foes) plus individual abilities like champion+advantage for 19% crit chance per attack which means a bonus action attack.

Also since it doesn't reduce the chance of crit at all (and gives a bonus on crit), it has great synergy with crit boosters (barbarian brutal critical, half-orc savage attacks, paladin divine smite, fighter champion). These can give even more reason for the party to throw buffs on the GWM character as more effective then a direct move.

I cry at you for thinking its wasted time. Do you know why comparisons are done in a white room? Because if you don't then you'll have endless bickering about the precise details of the encounter.

If someone is good at this kind of stuff then it's very useful and the more knowledge and experience that have of the actual game can further allow them to pick a whiteroom with reasonable assumptions that closely matches actual play experiences. So yes, it's important to consider what the party does to help such a character and it helps to consider what they are giving up by doing so and what kind of a difference that makes. But at that point we are looking more at party optimization and at that point most of us aren't comfortable enough at making those kinds of comparisons because party configuration and playstyles of different players isn't something we have control over.

 

[FrogReaver]

If multiple party members contribute to buffing one character, it's probably okay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably but I guess it depends a lil. Another party member buffing the GWM Fighter causes more damage than the same party member buffing a non GWF character. It depends on how much greater that benefit is as well.

 

[Ancalagon]

With a +2 bonus to hit cherry on top.

At our table, we call it the "John Wick" build, and we (OK, mostly me) like to threaten using it during character creation, just to make the DM wince.

One of the thing I find sad with these "optimal builds" is how narrow and specific they are. And there aren't that many of them either. There is a *very large* number of "okay-ish to decent" builds you can have, but only a few of these twink ones. It's narrowing the game's scope.

 

[CapnZapp]

Everytime someone does math like this, I want to cry at the time wasted.

Because it doesn't show anything in a white room vacuum. When a character has GWM, other party members will enhance that character because it is effective to do so.

So, if your math is "he's attacking the one the monk stunned or some spell restrained (advantage), is one of the Bless targets from the cleric (+1d4), is one of the two with twinned Haste from the sorcerer (another attack), if he misses he'll use Precision (+d to hit only if needed)", then you can compare we're seeing at the tables. Of course not this particular mix, but cascade of paty help (either buffs or debuffing foes) plus individual abilities like champion+advantage for 19% crit chance per attack which means a bonus action attack.

Also since it doesn't reduce the chance of crit at all (and gives a bonus on crit), it has great synergy with crit boosters (barbarian brutal critical, half-orc savage attacks, paladin divine smite, fighter champion). These can give even more reason for the party to throw buffs on the GWM character as more effective then a direct move.

I agree with what you're saying.

At least, I think I do. You really could clarify whose math that makes you want to cry...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[CapnZapp]

If multiple party members contribute to buffing one character, it's probably okay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, that misses the point. The point is there's no other feat(ure) that can be elevated to this level. The point is that GWM (SS/CE), and not any other feat, is overpowered.

PS. Still afk, so my main reply to Ancalagon is still forthcoming

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[CapnZapp]

I cry at you for thinking its wasted time. Do you know why comparisons are done in a white room? Because if you don't then you'll have endless bickering about the precise details of the encounter.

If someone is good at this kind of stuff then it's very useful and the more knowledge and experience that have of the actual game can further allow them to pick a whiteroom with reasonable assumptions that closely matches actual play experiences. So yes, it's important to consider what the party does to help such a character and it helps to consider what they are giving up by doing so and what kind of a difference that makes. But at that point we are looking more at party optimization and at that point most of us aren't comfortable enough at making those kinds of comparisons because party configuration and playstyles of different players isn't something we have control over.

I didn't read Blue as attacking the premise of the thread. Perhaps I was just not reading closely enough.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[CapnZapp]

One of the thing I find sad with these "optimal builds" is how narrow and specific they are. And there aren't that many of them either. There is a *very large* number of "okay-ish to decent" builds you can have, but only a few of these twink ones. It's narrowing the game's scope.

Yes one of the actual underlying problems is that someone at WotC apparently decided that if you want to do your job as a damage dealer you don't get to use a Longsword, or twin axes (Shagga sad), or any number of cool choices.

It's Greatweapon (or Hand Crossbow) or GTFO.

Yes, that's narrowing the game's scope. (For us who feel the feat-less game is also too narrow, at least)

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Horwath]

Yes one of the actual underlying problems is that someone at WotC apparently decided that if you want to do your job as a damage dealer you don't get to use a Longsword, or twin axes (Shagga sad), or any number of cool choices.

It's Greatweapon (or Hand Crossbow) or GTFO.

Yes, that's narrowing the game's scope. (For us who feel the feat-less game is also too narrow, at least)

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Dual wield is solved with putting offhand attack into same Attack Action with mainhand attack.

Longsword(sword&board style) is not the DPS choice. It's defense choice. Although halforc champion with longsword can be nice-and-simple DPS with lots of damage.