D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Yaarel]

From the information that I can find so far:

Rigodruok is the name of a local setting. It is a specific valley in the far north. It occurs in a list of "exotic" locations in the 1988 AD&D 2e book, Greyhawk Adventures, by James M Ward (of "Drawmij" fame).

The Rigodruok valley is northward beyond both the 1980 Darlene map (which cuts of at 55°) − and even beyond the 1983 Glossography latitudes map (which cuts off at about 63°).

Its hex location is "W4-51" on the Darlene map, where longitude hex "W4" is one hex east from the source of the River Fler that courses the Burneal Forest. The latitude hex "51" is way far north, as the Darlene map cuts off at hex "74" and decreases numbers from there. If I understand correctly, hex "0" is the North Pole. If so, Rigodruok is 51 hexes southward from it. Meaning: this valley is located exactly at latitude 67.83, and in other words, it is just across the border of the Arctic Circle, in the land of the midnight sun.

However, this valley has a magitech miniature artificial sun that hovers a mile above the valley. The warmth is a magical warmth.

The description of Rigodruok is presented in the form of a travel journal by one of the few survivors of an expedition that discovered the valley of Rigodruok. But from a 5e perspective today, it seems more likely the explorers stumbled across a Fey Crossing, and are describing a local area in the Feywild.

It is a lush paradise that is subarctic at its edge but becomes more tropical as one approaches the area under the artificial sun. The main inhabitants of the vale are: Goblin, Bugbear, plus various kinds of giant spiders including sapient ones. There is also a Human community with stone age technology. But there are "ruins" with strange glassware and metal items, that probably imply magitech (Fey or Elemental, Arcane or Primal).

The journey to the valley is of interest here.

• South from Black Ice near the source of the River Fler, then due north.
→
• Black Ice is "almost certainly magically produced and sustained".
• Normally, ice at this latitude only exists during winter and melts in Spring.
• The climate of Black Ice includes "arctic" creatures.
• The border of the Black Ice is a towering wall of it.
• The "Ice" seems more accurately understood as a kind of vast glacier.
• The Black Ice terrain is mostly hilly highland, but mountain cliffs can steep.
• The Black Ice has numerous regions of geothermic hot springs, and ice caverns.
→
• The northern boundary of the Black Ice is a mountain range.
→
• After crossing the mountains, there is a "region of mists", probably warm fog.
• The continent of Flanaess cuts off at around 65° as its northernmost point.
• Thus Rigodruok at about 68° implies the "mists" are a over water.
• The valley seems to be in one of the northerly islands in the Drawmij (Arctic) Ocean.
→
• Then one reaches the mountains and the valley within it.


Overall, the description seems useful for understanding the Black Ice itself. It is a weird glacier that magically covers an expanse of land. It stays as if "arctic" despite the expected summer season. However the latitudes north from it are warm, as normal for the latitude.

Heh, well, "warm" in the sense of Canada.

Probably, Rigodruok is not on the northen continent of Hyperborea itself.

 

[Yaarel]

The latitude of D&D Rigodruok is about 67.8° within the Arctic Circle at about 66°.

In reallife, the areas around the Arctic Circle can be lush, dense forest taiga, such as in Alaska and Yukon. The taiga across Fennoscandia and Siberia can reach about 70° latitude. These qualify as "jungles" and rainforests where the sun never sets.

Even the treeless tundra areas within the Arctic Circle are normally warm and habitable. Here is a photo from a city in Nunavut Canada, Kugluktuk, whose latitude at 67.8° is inside the Arctic Circle, same as D&D Rigodruok.

Here is a reallife map of the densest vegetation across planet Earth. Notice how fertile the far north is. Heh, to be fair, the area around Hudson Bay Canada seems weirdly cold compared to the same latitudes around the rest of the planet. But it is still an area of warm summers. Other parts of Canada are normal and fertile beyond the Arctic Circle.

Here is Alaska and Yukon, as well as Northwest and Nunavut.

In sum, one sees the midnight sun while still in dense taiga. And long before one ever sees the polar icecap.

In the D&D narrative descriptions of northerly Greyhawk, the references to "icy", "frost", "cold", etcetera can only refer to winters. Summers are warm and lovely.

 

[JDR]

Heh, I meant the map will be collectible. Players chew thru maps. The good maps get much love and nostalgia. And the 2024 Greyhawk map is beautiful in its own right. A couple decades from now, a mint map will be valuable.

Meh, in a couple decades from now I'll probably be dead

 

[Yaarel]

Here is a great map of the Arctic Circle. You can clearly see where the taiga tree line extends above the Arctic Circle, as well as where the icecap is.

In Canada, here is where the semi-nomadic Inuit live and travel, mainly fishing and hunting.

 

[Yaarel]

Here is a helpful satellite view of the minimum and maximum arctic sea ice during the year. Hudson Bay Canada, whence "Icy Bay" Greyhawk, freezes over during winter.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

View attachment 385326
View attachment 385324
The latitudes of the Greyhawk map are known from the 1983 World of Greyhawk Glossography.

They correspond to North America. Blackmoor is in the latitude and the geography of Hudson Bay of Canada. The Burneal Forest corresponds the subarctic boreal forests across Canada. The Corusk Mountains are Labrador and Newfoundland. Shar of Cuba, Florida above it. Note the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico, and the Gulf of Mexico. The Woolly Bay and Relmor Bay are swollen versions of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers. Aerdi Great Kingdom is the eastern United States. From the east coast of Flanaess to the Yatil Mountains compares the east coast of the US to the Rocky Mountains.

The sense of size and scope demonstrates how massive the Greyhawk map is. Each hex is 30 miles across. 23 hexes northward is 10° latitude. Thus, the size of the planet Oerth checks out, and is the same size as the reallife planet Earth.

Now how does the size of Oerth compare to Toril?

 

[Werthead]

Now how does the size of Oerth compare to Toril?

Toril's size is a little in flux, with 2E saying it is precisely Earth-sized but the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, the only source with a complete world map and a scale, puts the equatorial circumference at 23,990 miles, slightly less than Earth at 24,901 miles (and mostly negligible, or even within a margin of error).

Both are smaller than Oerth, the equatorial circumference of which is much more firmly pinned (in The Adventure Begins) to 25,200 miles. This appears relatively negligible over a planetary scale, but it means that Oerth is around 5% larger than Toril.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Toril's size is a little in flux, with 2E saying it is precisely Earth-sized but the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, the only source with a complete world map and a scale, puts the equatorial circumference at 23,990 miles, slightly less than Earth at 24,901 miles (and mostly negligible, or even within a margin of error).

Both are smaller than Oerth, the equatorial circumference of which is much more firmly pinned (in The Adventure Begins) to 25,200 miles. This appears relatively negligible over a planetary scale, but it means that Oerth is around 5% larger than Toril.

Some sources have Toril at 260 million square miles, bigger then Earth, so it seems very inconsistent.

I do think the Faerun-Zakhara-Kara Tur super continent I'd bigger then Eurasia.

 

[Werthead]

Some sources have Toril at 260 million square miles, bigger then Earth, so it seems very inconsistent.

I do think the Faerun-Zakhara-Kara Tur super continent I'd bigger then Eurasia.

That is certainly the case. Faerun is comfortably 4-5 times the size of Europe, Kara-Tur isn't massively smaller than Asia, and Zakhara (replacing Arabia, or Arabia and India in location if not culture) is pretty big. Toril is wholly missing Africa though, and Maztica and Katashaka are smaller than North and South America.

Osse is a lot bigger than Australia though.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Toril's size is a little in flux, with 2E saying it is precisely Earth-sized but the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, the only source with a complete world map and a scale, puts the equatorial circumference at 23,990 miles, slightly less than Earth at 24,901 miles (and mostly negligible, or even within a margin of error).

Both are smaller than Oerth, the equatorial circumference of which is much more firmly pinned (in The Adventure Begins) to 25,200 miles. This appears relatively negligible over a planetary scale, but it means that Oerth is around 5% larger than Toril.

I think it's a bit unimaginative that all these settings are Earth-like spheres. Where are the discs, toroids, hollow spheres, dyson spheres, ringworlds, infinite planes, shattered worlds etc?!