Group Dynamics: Min/Max vs RPers

[Ranger19k]

Swift Hunters can use skirmish on their favored enemies even if they are immune to precision damage... but with only 3 levels in Ranger he only gets 1 favored enemy, which is why Swift Hunter builds tend to have more Ranger levels.

I don't disagree with Dandu's points, but the Swift Hunter feat stacks Ranger and Scout levels for the sake of determining Favored Enemy as well as skirmish damage, so this character will actually have 3 Favored Enemies. If he took all precision damage resistant creatures (a smart thing to do), this will limit your options a bit more when it comes time for determining what to throw at them that will be precision damage proof, but like Dandu pointed out, there are at least 6 or so types of creatures that are immune to precision damage, so even if your Swift Hunter chose three of them, that still leaves three or so others that he really sucks against.

I would note that Fharlanghn offers no domain power that allows for a move action as a swift action. His domains are Balance, Celerity, Luck, Portal, Protection, Travel, Weather......

So I would start to scrutinize these min/maxers a little bit more.

I actually suspect that he took Fharlanghn's Travel domain, and then swapped it with the Complete Champion Travel Devotion Feat which does give movement as a swift action. This is a pretty standard swift hunter tactic. Aboyd makes a lot of good points, so I'm not mentioning this to disparage his comments, but rather just to caution being careful when scrutinizing the player's characters. Nothing wrong with taking a hard look, but their builds look legal to me, so I just didn't want you starting the conversation with accusing one of them of doing something illegal when it probably isn't. It's all about conflict management.

Anyways, all of these guys have given some pretty solid advice. I would simply reinforce the notion that as DM, you are not required to allow ambiguous interpretations of the rules or access to all the splatbooks. Even if CharOp says that it's legal by RAW, if you think it's too overpowered, you can always swing the "overpowered nerf" hammer. It sounds like you'd rather not do this, which is fine, but I agree with Eldrich-Lord that the Kaorti-resin does not need to be available for easy purchase.

Maybe make sure that the min/maxers can give a GOOD Role Playing explanation for why they have such equipment and how their characters developed the way they did. If the explanation is no good, then feel free to have them adjust a little. Nothing major, but small fixes might make the difference.

Otherwise, yeah, maybe help the wizard improve his tactics/spell selection a bit so that he can contribute more in combat.

 

[aboyd]

I actually suspect that he took Fharlanghn's Travel domain, and then swapped it with the Complete Champion Travel Devotion Feat which does give movement as a swift action. This is a pretty standard swift hunter tactic. Aboyd makes a lot of good points, so I'm not mentioning this to disparage his comments, but rather just to caution being careful when scrutinizing the player's characters.

Good catch. I don't feel disparaged. I feel like conceding that you're almost certainly right. I completely forgot that Devotion feats can swap for domain powers. That's a brilliant tactical move for someone doing skirmish damage.

 

[SuperJebba]

Thanks for the advice guys. I generally only run published adventures as I have a full-time job, a wife and 2.5 kids, so I am at the mercy of whatever beasties are in the module. I think I will just need to make some time each week to alter the enemies a bit in an effort to challenge the group more and make them face their weaknesses.

 

[Dandu]

I don't disagree with Dandu's points, but the Swift Hunter feat stacks Ranger and Scout levels for the sake of determining Favored Enemy as well as skirmish damage, so this character will actually have 3 Favored Enemies.

Hm, I seem to have forgotten the exact text of the Swift Hunter feat. Thanks for pointing that out.

Thanks for the advice guys. I generally only run published adventures as I have a full-time job, a wife and 2.5 kids, so I am at the mercy of whatever beasties are in the module. I think I will just need to make some time each week to alter the enemies a bit in an effort to challenge the group more and make them face their weaknesses.

Premade adventure modules suffer a few weaknesses. They obviously cannot be tailored for a specific party's capabilities, but, somewhat less obviously, were written by English majors and intended to by used by the lowest common denominator, ie, people who thought a Dual Wielding Finesse Fighter with Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Two Weapon Defense was a good idea.

 

[kitcik]

... somewhat less obviously, were written by English majors

Now THAT was a funny link! Too bad I can't give you XP.

... ie, people who thought a Dual Wielding Finesse Fighter with Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Two Weapon Defense was a good idea.

It's not?

 

[Dandu]

It's not?

[sblock]You need Dex for to-hit, AC and the TWF chain... but it's Str that does damage. You need Con to have the HP to stand up in combat... at minimum, you spread your stat boosts over three stats.

And even then, you're dealing [W]+Str with your main hand, and [W]+Str/2 with your offhand, attacking at a -2 penalty.

Dodge only gives a small bonus to AC vs one opponent. Spring Attack means you only hit the enemy once per round if you're using it, so when you face someone with DR (and who doesn't have DR at higher levels?), fast healing, or regeneration, you're attacks stand a good chance of being negated.

And so on and so on. This just isn't keeping up with the damage output of a default fighter who simply grabs a large sword and hits people with it.[/sblock]

 

[Ranger19k]

He took the class in order to have access to all knowledges and the domain power that let's him take a move action as a swift action a certain number of times per day. He uses the knowledges to power the feat Knowledge Devoition (I think that's what it's called) so he can make a check on every thing we fight to do more damage. He dumps all his skill points into knowledges, hide and move silently. He is unable to do anything else a scout does all that well.

Just something else to think about / look at is the mechanism on how your character "took" knowledge devotion. If he used cloistered cleric to get access to all the knowledge skills and then used a separate feat to take knowledge devotion, then he would have all Knowledge skills as class skills for that cleric level - which he probably took at first level, which equals a lot of knowledge skills.

However, if he swapped the cloistered cleric's knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, instead of using a separate feat, which is the way most people using that build go, then he looses access to the knowledge domain granted power -which happens to be all those knowledge skills as class skills. People building swift hunters often forget this small step. So if he did swap out the knowledge domain for the devotion, he needs to be buying all of those knowledge skills as cross-class skills.

That means, for those 10 levels of scout, his only class knowledge skills are nature, dungeoneering, and geography, which should yield lower numbers for all the other knowledge skills.

If he's getting a +5 additional dmg against every type of creature he runs across due to his knowledge devotion check, it might be worth checking what got bought as a class skill and what got bought as a cross-class skill. It might bring down the additional damage level against certain creatures.

Or, he might have done it correctly all along.... who knows.

 

[Dandu]

You seem to have a level 14 party. I think a few level 13 characters of mine should be a good challenge for them.

Blasting sorcerer
Tactics: Keep distance from enemies. Be invisible. Buff up the warrior with GMW. Cast Ice Storm to hamper movement. Pair Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion to inflict heavy strength penalties - if you get someone below zero, they are paralized. Level drain with Enervate. Scare away with Fear. Grapple, disarm, and bull rush with Telekinesis. Disintegrate with... well, Disintegrate. Use Blindness/Deafness on people with low fortitude save, cast Fireball and then use the resulting fire as fuel for Pyrotechnics. If friendly fire is an issue, as Pyrotechnics has a large radius, carry a hooded lantern and affect a 120 ft cone.

Control sorcerer
Tactics: Target saves with spells. Share Magic Jar with familiar and possess people. Cast Fly on others. Book it if things get tough.

Ranger
Tactics: TWF with a Greataxe and armor spikes. Use the Defending property on the armor spikes to add to AC. Get GMW from the sorcerer to help get better enhancement bonuses. Armor has moderate fortification, which has a 75% chance of negating critical hits and precision damage. Greataxe deals 1 Constitution damage per hit.

I'm sure the CR works out to something roughly appropriate to a challenging encounter. Just be sure to effect a retreat if things get tough; that much loot in the hands of your party might be an issue.

 

[Empirate]

Minor nitpick, Dandu: Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion both inflict penalties to Str, not damage. Ability penalties cannot reduce an ability below 1. So no paralyzing with that combo, only heavy debuffing.

 

[aboyd]

Ability penalties cannot reduce an ability below 1.

Citation, please?