D&D 5E Have the designers lost interest in short rests?

[EzekielRaiden]

It's comparable with the Barbarian attacking with advantage during Rage. Highly dependent on the target's AC, of course. And it lasts nowhere near as long. And heaven forfend that the Fighter be - gasp - a better fighter than any other class. And you still only get one Action Surge per short rest, when the Action Surge is useful for many things outside combat.

You get two uses of Action Surge per rest at level 17. Admittedly, very high level, but it does happen. All Rage does in this context is give you +2 (eventually +4, at level 16) damage on a successful hit. Not at all a bad thing, to be sure. But not "double your damage output, or something better if you think double damage isn't as worthwhile."

Again, I'm not saying Fighters don't need some love. I just think this is the wrong kind of love. Just as one example, it would make a Fighter 2 dip basically mandatory for most characters--being able to take 2x actions for most or all of one combat per rest would be an almost irreplaceable benefit. It's almost as good as a concentration-free haste spell that refreshes on a short rest. Giving out the main benefit of one of the best 3rd level spells to 2nd level Fighters doesn't sound remotely balanced. Simple, and a boon to a class that could use boons; I grant both of these things. I just don't think it's wise or even the right solution for the problem. The Fighter needs more it can contribute outside of combat.

 

[Quartz]

All Rage does in this context is give you +2 (eventually +4, at level 16) damage on a successful hit.

D'oh. I got Rage mixed with Reckless Advantage. Anyway RA is even worse. RA can be used each and every round.

Just as one example, it would make a Fighter 2 dip basically mandatory for most characters--being able to take 2x actions for most or all of one combat per rest would be an almost irreplaceable benefit.

I would limit the duration to the lower of your levels in the Fighter class or your Proficiency Bonus. This means a F2 dip only grants 2 rounds max.

 

[Quartz]

You get two uses of Action Surge per rest at level 17.

I'd bring this forward to level 13 or 14.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

D'oh. I got Rage mixed with Reckless Advantage. Anyway RA is even worse. RA can be used each and every round.

Reckless Attack is just advantage on attack rolls. It does not permit you to do any more damage in a round than you could (potentially) have done otherwise, with the sole exception that crits are slightly more likely (the equivalent of 4.75% of your weapon's damage dice, on average, for whatever rounds you use it). It is significantly inferior to actually rolling more attacks, so...yeah, I'm not surprised it can be used all the time. Especially since it comes with a nasty drawback that Action Surge completely lacks (everyone else getting advantage against you). Making twice as many actual attack rolls, as opposed to making half as many attack rolls with advantage, will produce both a better average and a better top-end.

I would limit the duration to the lower of your levels in the Fighter class or your Proficiency Bonus. This means a F2 dip only grants 2 rounds max.

One of the few unambiguously good things about the proposal was its simplicity. This isn't exactly keeping it simple....and would still be a huge boon. Imagine a Fighter 2/Paladin 5. Use Action Surge, use the Attack action twice, then use it twice again on the next round, expending a spell slot to Divine Smite if you crit. That's eight attack rolls; you've got about a one in three chance of getting a crit in that span, which is pretty dang good. Or consider a Fighter 2/<Full Caster 5>, using that to nova out four spells in two rounds.

It would absolutely be an optimizer's wet dream, even with a two-round limit.

Honestly though? You do you. If you try it at your tables and you like the results, more power to you. It's not what I would do, but literally who cares what I think if your tables are happy with the results?

 

[Nikosandros]

Now, just because someone doesn't have a degree in something, doesn't mean they have to be bad at it (after all, as noted, Heinsoo has a theology degree and he was at the helm for 4e, the edition [in]famous for its mathematical rigor), but the apparent near-total lack of STEM training among game designers for things that could really use it...isn't encouraging. I get that it's hard to attract people with physics or chemistry degrees to a job like this, but you'd think they could at least hire a survey-design consultant or something.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the one game where I know that the lead designer has a background in Physics is GURPS...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's not that much of a boost, and the Fighter class sorely needs the help.

I don't really agree. In terms of its ability to have an overall decisive impact in combat, a Battlemaster isn't suffering any serious problems. Maybe you won't OFTEN rise to the level of performing that one super critical move that turned everything from defeat into victory, but you will certainly churn out damage and act as an impediment to the bad guys ability to simply do what they want. With the right mix of maneuvers you can also visibly increase the effectiveness of other PCs.

The problem is the same problem that fighters have always had, THAT IS IT. You don't get anything beyond that from the game. This would be OK if wizards were just guys with a few minor parlor tricks and maybe once in a while an expensive high-risk "go for broke" move, or something like that. But the genre expectations which evolved for D&D are not that. They are a set of expectations under which fighters are "just an ordinary guy" and are barred from doing anything that smells like 'magic' (whatever that is) and wizards are spell factories that have a long list of spell options which are all basically zero cost, beyond a resource mechanic which the players can usually manage in such a way as to seriously blunt its impact (and which 5e has further watered down compared with classic D&D).

Even hardcore OSRs with severe rules about when and how you can cast, short spell lists, and strict adherence to materials and such don't quite escape this, because the very existence of strategic magic resources, coupled with the "mundane fighter" means the game will ALWAYS give them no explicit OOC options. The very assumed milieu and genre of D&D fantasy is what creates the 'boring fighter'. 5e is not going to ever fix that. 4e couldn't even totally fix it. 4e gave fighters rituals for a feat, and 5e gives them a half-casting option (or MCing if you like). That's fine, but I've wanted more of a fantastic D&D that just breaks that mold. You can't really get it with 5e. You'd basically have to write another version of 5e. I personally just figured 4e was closer and went from there. In my own game, there are no 'mundane fighters'.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You get two uses of Action Surge per rest at level 17. Admittedly, very high level, but it does happen. All Rage does in this context is give you +2 (eventually +4, at level 16) damage on a successful hit. Not at all a bad thing, to be sure. But not "double your damage output, or something better if you think double damage isn't as worthwhile."

Again, I'm not saying Fighters don't need some love. I just think this is the wrong kind of love. Just as one example, it would make a Fighter 2 dip basically mandatory for most characters--being able to take 2x actions for most or all of one combat per rest would be an almost irreplaceable benefit. It's almost as good as a concentration-free haste spell that refreshes on a short rest. Giving out the main benefit of one of the best 3rd level spells to 2nd level Fighters doesn't sound remotely balanced. Simple, and a boon to a class that could use boons; I grant both of these things. I just don't think it's wise or even the right solution for the problem. The Fighter needs more it can contribute outside of combat.

It isn't the 'needs more damage output' that is the required love, IMHO at all. I'm not a char ops guy, but I am not seeing insufficient damage output from my Battlemaster. At least not in the range levels 1-7 or so, not sure what happens later.

Actually I think the CHAMPION is showing the way. It is MUCH MUCH MUCH too feeble in terms of how far it has gone, but if you want a fantastic fighter, that's a glimmer of the path to go down. Now if you just take a page from @Garthanos and load them up with fantastical 'practices' that give them the abilities of a true mythic archetype, you'd have something. Again though, as I pointed out in my last post, you really have to break the D&D genre conventions in the end to really get there. The
Champion I'm talking about is going to be knocking off the tops of mountains, draining lakes, causing earthquakes, slaying 500 ordinary men in one round of combat, wrestling a giant and winning, etc. The 5e Champion is maybe OK as level 1 in that progression, except it never really progresses. I'd also have plenty of other 'practices' which were taking you in other directions than sheer 'strong man' type stuff.

 

[tetrasodium]

Notably the monk is a healing monster. He can heal up to 10(d8+prof bonus) per short rest.

Precise strike to land a SS/ GWM hit. Tripping strike to knock them prone for advantage for everyone if you would have hit anyway.

Rogues get a lot out of Riposte as well.

There are occasional useful ones like that yes, but when you have 3 plus one more at 7 10 & 15

It isn't the 'needs more damage output' that is the required love, IMHO at all. I'm not a char ops guy, but I am not seeing insufficient damage output from my Battlemaster. At least not in the range levels 1-7 or so, not sure what happens later.

Actually I think the CHAMPION is showing the way. It is MUCH MUCH MUCH too feeble in terms of how far it has gone, but if you want a fantastic fighter, that's a glimmer of the path to go down. Now if you just take a page from @Garthanos and load them up with fantastical 'practices' that give them the abilities of a true mythic archetype, you'd have something. Again though, as I pointed out in my last post, you really have to break the D&D genre conventions in the end to really get there. The
Champion I'm talking about is going to be knocking off the tops of mountains, draining lakes, causing earthquakes, slaying 500 ordinary men in one round of combat, wrestling a giant and winning, etc. The 5e Champion is maybe OK as level 1 in that progression, except it never really progresses. I'd also have plenty of other 'practices' which were taking you in other directions than sheer 'strong man' type stuff.

Every time you get an extra attack with a fighter all of the dice & modifiers on your weapon are multiplied once more. What you are seeing is not that you are lacking so much as cantrip users almost catch up to 2*(str+weapon+weapon mods) & occasional crit with their cantrip die+cantrip die & occasional spell slot burning spell. When you get a better weapon or hit 11 for a third attack you will decisively pull ahead & likey stay that way if you can manage a +2 or better weapon.

There is also the fact that things like this cripple most every caster but warlock yet do absolutely nothing to you & they will only become more common.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There are occasional useful ones like that yes, but when you have 3 plus one more at 7 10 & 15

Every time you get an extra attack with a fighter all of the dice & modifiers on your weapon are multiplied once more. What you are seeing is not that you are lacking so much as cantrip users almost catch up to 2*(str+weapon+weapon mods) & occasional crit with their cantrip die+cantrip die & occasional spell slot burning spell. When you get a better weapon or hit 11 for a third attack you will decisively pull ahead & likey stay that way if you can manage a +2 or better weapon.

There is also the fact that things like this cripple most every caster but warlock yet do absolutely nothing to you & they will only become more common.
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Right. IIRC my Transmuter was doing almost Battlemaster level damage in the earlier levels. The fighters did pull ahead some later. At high levels there are definitely a lot of "gimp the wizard" type monsters. Of course that is IMHO a "code smell" (bad smelling design indicator) that should clue the developer that they have other issues to fix. As I've said before, the problem is they are handcuffed if they are forbidden to touch the genre assumptions.

 

[Quartz]

At high levels there are definitely a lot of "gimp the wizard" type monsters.

There are critters that are resistant to weapon damage. Do you class that as gimping the fighter?

Actually I think the CHAMPION is showing the way. It is MUCH MUCH MUCH too feeble in terms of how far it has gone, but if you want a fantastic fighter, that's a glimmer of the path to go down.

I see the Champion as a beginner or sidekick character.