D&D 5E Have the designers lost interest in short rests?

[The Crimson Binome]

Further, because casters are the primary source of both indispensable healing and essential problem-solving tools, casters are the ones who set the pace of rests, meaning it is to everyone's advantage (whether caster or martial) to rest as often as possible in order to spend the most time in "peak" and the least time in "trough."

How do you propose to solve this problem that, up to now, WotC has twice tried to solve and failed--and which even 2e began to fall prey to?

There is absolutely nothing which a spellcaster can bring to the table that is indispensable. At all. There never has been. There is always a mundane solution to every problem (short of specific world-building issues, where the DM fiat declares that magic is the only option).

Given that fact, and the truth that fighters can (and do, and have always been able to) demonstrate sufficient steady-state power, the obvious solution is to hold spellcasters accountable. Don't let spellcasters voluntarily opt out of their shortcomings. Remove mid-adventure spell recovery as an option.

 

[ph0rk]

There is absolutely nothing which a spellcaster can bring to the table that is indispensable.

The wizard brings versatility, and that is something the Fighter sorely lacks.

No class is indespensible, but some are a hell of a lot more versatile than others, and also get to take center stage in two or even three pillars of play. Furthermore, long rest casters can take center stage more easily when they do not have to contend with resource loss.

So, while a party may not need a wizard, once it has one it needs other things a hell of a lot less.

 

[Flamestrike]

I will complain about required day lengths because they fail the story driven game paradigm

Only if you as the DM let them.

One of the Core books (the DMG) contains actual rules and guidance for adjusting the length of the adventuring day to fit your own games pacing.

 

[Garthanos]

I think the problem with Martial Practices was that they were too specific. This has often been an issue with rules for Martial characters - things that would be really cool to do if they come up but will usually come up once a campaign.

One paradigm to remember is that often the effect of a practice or a ritual is one where you can accomplish the result via a skill challenge roll or two.... ie they are part of the games assumptions that skill use as it advances is on part with the use of rituals and if you take a practice in it you have set that in as an auto success. I have also a concept called Karma points that I use as alternate rewards in this concept your situation comes up and you may actually be able to invoke it on the fly so that when future situations like it come up you can now do them reliably. If you actually wanted to spend the Karma then it would be expensive similar in how a bribe price might be set at 1/10th the cost of a magic item.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That level of mind control, which is 100% infallible and give the victim absolutely no say in how they respond to it, is pure magic. It's not a thing that could possibly exist in real life. You might claim that it's a martial ability, because the caster learned it by studying combat tactics instead of eldritch tomes, but it's just magic by another name.

If you want to cast spells, then there's already a class for that. There's more than one class for that. Stop dragging the fighter into your shenanigans.

Horse potatoes.
Anyway, the fighter is already magical. A 5e high level fighter can survive 200' falls, defeat 30 meter long dragons with nothing but a sword (try to imagine even beating an elephant with a sword, good luck, dragons are 3-8 times bigger). Etc. They are ALREADY thoroughly 'magical' by any realistic measure.

You're not objecting to magical, you're simply objecting to doing anything that wasn't in 1974 vintage D&D (at least in your mind, I was there and I'm not convinced).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Which spells? You aren't by chance going to suggest that casters should be balanced against the possibility of always having the perfect spell selection in every possible situation vrs martials with no feats & no magic items are you?

Now now, 5e full casters get to select quite a few spells, from considerable lists, so they DO have what they need when they need it, AND they have rituals, which generally means not needing to memorize certain 'administrivial' spells as well. So, yeah, as a guy who's run 5e wizards, I can tell you that, while you certainly may not hit a home run every time, you are very very likely to have a spell of considerable value in many situations. Sometimes you will have the perfect spell, and if you had forward planning of any kind the chances of that are much amplified (especially if you make/purchase an appropriate scroll, which is entirely feasible).

that nova really is not all that gruesome, Thanks to wotc giving us a hardcover with a great published example of what would otherwise be a hypothetical whiteroom level possible but unlikely extreme of nearly every creature having energy resist energy immunes and/or magic resist where magic items rain like candy for martials & are nearly nonexistant for casters with avernus don't forget to cut both nova & at will damage in half too.

Oh, yes, well, on the fighter's most perfect wet dream day he's clearly superior, so it is all good! lol. He's STILL strategically not even in the same league with the wizard.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The wizard brings versatility, and that is something the Fighter sorely lacks.

No class is indespensible, but some are a hell of a lot more versatile than others, and also get to take center stage in two or even three pillars of play. Furthermore, long rest casters can take center stage more easily when they do not have to contend with resource loss.

So, while a party may not need a wizard, once it has one it needs other things a hell of a lot less.

I would say they are indispensible. Again, build a party of full-caster mountain dwarves and tell me it has any use for a fighter! I mean, sure, my Mountain Dwarf Transmuter was nowhere near as good in melee as a (reasonable) fighter, but he was pretty darn good, and he definitely went toe to toe with a few monsters, and even beat them up good! He chopped up the big nasty bugbear leader in Phandelver with an axe! The rest of the party was too chicken to do it!

 

[tetrasodium]

Now now, 5e full casters get to select quite a few spells, from considerable lists, so they DO have what they need when they need it, AND they have rituals, which generally means not needing to memorize certain 'administrivial' spells as well. So, yeah, as a guy who's run 5e wizards, I can tell you that, while you certainly may not hit a home run every time, you are very very likely to have a spell of considerable value in many situations. Sometimes you will have the perfect spell, and if you had forward planning of any kind the chances of that are much amplified (especially if you make/purchase an appropriate scroll, which is entirely feasible).

Oh, yes, well, on the fighter's most perfect wet dream day he's clearly superior, so it is all good! lol. He's STILL strategically not even in the same league with the wizard.

That sounds a lot like you avoiding the question of "which spells" because you realize rituals pretty much stop at 3rd level & that level+int prepared spells doesn't contain the list you want to rattle off. What is most interesting is that you go from dodging that admission of what a wizard prepared spell list on his "perfect wet dream day" would look like to complaining we shouldn't compare to a fighter's "most perfect wet dream day" consisting of averages that hold up in his favor no matter how few or numerous the number of encounters between rests he needs to slog through.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That sounds a lot like you avoiding the question of "which spells" because you realize rituals pretty much stop at 3rd level & that level+int prepared spells doesn't contain the list you want to rattle off. What is most interesting is that you go from dodging that admission of what a wizard prepared spell list on his "perfect wet dream day" would look like to complaining we shouldn't compare to a fighter's "most perfect wet dream day" consisting of averages that hold up in his favor no matter how few or numerous the number of encounters between rests he needs to slog through.

Are you trying to insinuate that fighters can emulate Polymorphs, invisibility, teleportation, protection spells, and such? Because they cannot, and that doesn't even count clever things like walls, monster summoning, etc. etc. etc. which can be of huge strategic value when used correct (and some of which can trigger damaging conditions on monsters which are relatively unavoidable to them, and don't necessarily fall prey to resistance/immunity or even saves).

As a past (and present) master of the art of manipulating the spell list to my benefit, I assure you, fighters are not in the same league, not even playing the same game. Yes, when their one area of expertise comes up, and it does pretty often, they're quite effective. Otherwise? Any other character of any other class would do as well, and more likely better.

 

[Garthanos]

Are you trying to insinuate that fighters can emulate Polymorphs, invisibility, teleportation, protection spells, and such? Because they cannot, and that doesn't even count clever things like walls, monster summoning, etc. etc. etc. which can be of huge strategic value when used correct (and some of which can trigger damaging conditions on monsters which are relatively unavoidable to them, and don't necessarily fall prey to resistance/immunity or even saves).

As a past (and present) master of the art of manipulating the spell list to my benefit, I assure you, fighters are not in the same league, not even playing the same game. Yes, when their one area of expertise comes up, and it does pretty often, they're quite effective. Otherwise? Any other character of any other class would do as well, and more likely better.

I really do not see anything in the game even implying skills ought to be able to achieve anything approaching what casters do... in fact the opposite is true when the game explicitly tells Players in the Players Handbook that without magic adventuring would be ten times more difficult. And the paltry amount skills advance sheesh. And spell casters including Bards are as capable of being the ones who have that mundane solution plus have the spell casting in addition to that.