D&D 5E Have the designers lost interest in short rests?

[EzekielRaiden]

13th Age sort of addresses the same problem but from a somewhat different perspective, using the escalation dice to force a different kind of trade-off consideration.

Oh yeah, the 13th Age Escalation Die is probably the single most inspired piece of tabletop gaming design I've seen in a decade or more. It neatly solves both the nova problem and the "always use X, then Y, then Z" thinking, all with one tiny rule change (and the attendant design changes under the hood, aka making it so average hit chances are "low" in the first round but "high" by round 4-5, going from say 55% in round 1 to 70% by round 4). D&D could do much worse than learning from this example--honestly, I'd take the Escalation Die and spool it out even further, making it a true centerpiece of the game's design.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not sure if it's intentional or accidental, but as I said at the start of the thread, having powers be short rest rathrn than encounter does serve a useful purpose. It breaks up the approach of characters across encounters. In 4E it wasn't unsual to see the Figher start every encounter with "Come and get it". After a while the approach to an encounter became somewhat predictable. (You can break that up with a well designed set piece that prevents players from using their favoured strategies - but that assumes both the ability to design one - and the kind of game where a set piece of that sort is doable.)

The short rest means the Fighter needs to consider their resources across more than one combat. This means that using Riposte for example, is a genuine choice (In 4E I had a barbarian with an interrupt encounter power - unless I was attacked by a minion it was pretty much an automatic choice to fire it off at the earliest possible moment) as I might make better use of the superiority dice in the next combat. Really Short Rest powers are basically putting the abilities on the same schedule as a 4E action point. (The rest is just the means not the end).

13th Age sort of addresses the same problem but from a somewhat different perspective, using the escalation dice to force a different kind of trade-off consideration (Do I use the ability now, when I'm more likely to miss? Or hold off until later when I have a better chance to hit, but the monster may also live longer and do more damage to the party?)

Its basically making them have the same challenges for the player as dailies with less benefits... I designed a race with 2 racial encounter powers but using one suppressed the other and they had situational benefits

 

[Garthanos]

13th Age sort of addresses the same problem but from a somewhat different perspective, using the escalation dice to force a different kind of trade-off consideration (Do I use the ability now, when I'm more likely to miss? Or hold off until later when I have a better chance to hit, but the monster may also live longer and do more damage to the party?)

I like the escalation die but I like the idea of actually situational more valuable abilities better... can include enemies bloodied from 4e even

 

[Don Durito]

Its basically making them have the same challenges for the player as dailies with less benefits... I designed a race with 2 racial encounter powers but using one suppressed the other and they had situational benefits

I don't know, I really don't like daily powers much. I don't like the level of the trade off. Really a short rest power should be about 1.5 encounters. You face a level of decision making, but it shouldn't be such a big deal. It feels very different to me (provided everyone isn't just throwing out a big nova every 2nd or 3rd combat - which is what I've usually seen).

It was a real revelation to me when I first saw 5E played with the intended pacing - the game really does work very well when played as designed.

(Of course I don't think WOTC should be let off the hook for designing a game which is so difficult to make work as designed)

 

[pemerton]

Oh yeah, the 13th Age Escalation Die is probably the single most inspired piece of tabletop gaming design I've seen in a decade or more.

It's clever, but I can't agree that it's the single most inspired design since 2010! Unless we confine the space of analysis to D&D-like games that depend on (i) combat rounds and (ii) player moves chosen from a list that is non-renewable within the context of the encounter and (iii) requires rolls for player moves to succeed.

 

[cbwjm]

Spellcasters aren't needed. They might make things easier but a party without them is going to do fine.

 

[tetrasodium]

Are you trying to insinuate that fighters can emulate Polymorphs, invisibility, teleportation, protection spells, and such? Because they cannot, and that doesn't even count clever things like walls, monster summoning, etc. etc. etc. which can be of huge strategic value when used correct (and some of which can trigger damaging conditions on monsters which are relatively unavoidable to them, and don't necessarily fall prey to resistance/immunity or even saves).

As a past (and present) master of the art of manipulating the spell list to my benefit, I assure you, fighters are not in the same league, not even playing the same game. Yes, when their one area of expertise comes up, and it does pretty often, they're quite effective. Otherwise? Any other character of any other class would do as well, and more likely better.

still no list of spells but getting closer, you managed to describe a few and name a couple others...
You managed to tick off a 4th & 9th level concentration spell, a second & 4th level concentration spell, a 7th level spell, what could be a first second or third level spell, two of which are concentration, a set of third fourth fifth & 6th level spells... all of which have a save if they damage a monster who is unwilling to move more than 10 feet away from a 5x20 wall. While I don't think the 6th level drawmij's instant summon using a 1000gp component is your intent there is a set of third fourth fifth sixth & seventh level conjure x spells your vague list firmly plants a foot in both divine & arcane spell lists in a way that the gestalt caster you describe is well beyond the caster version of a "perfect wet dream day."


Are you incapable of making a spell list for a caster that justifies nova damage that catches up to fighter at will before factoring in overuse of energy/magic resist/immune & concentration without shining a spotlight on the fact that the idea does not really hold up as well as you seem to be implying?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It's clever, but I can't agree that it's the single most inspired design since 2010! Unless we confine the space of analysis to D&D-like games that depend on (i) combat rounds and (ii) player moves chosen from a list that is non-renewable within the context of the encounter and (iii) requires rolls for player moves to succeed.

Well, uh, yeah? I had assumed that was given, based on the (sub)forum we're discussing this in...

 

[pemerton]

There is absolutely nothing which a spellcaster can bring to the table that is indispensable. At all. There never has been. There is always a mundane solution to every problem (short of specific world-building issues, where the DM fiat declares that magic is the only option).

Spellcasters aren't needed. They might make things easier but a party without them is going to do fine.

I don't get these claims. Doesn't the issue of whether spellcasters are "needed" depend on what the goals of the players are? I remember one game I GMed where the PCs wanted to recover a magic staff from the plane of fire. That's not really feasible without spellcasting - to plane shift, to protect against being roasted on the plane of fire, to actually find the staff using location magic, maybe other stuff I'm forgetting.

Or what about learning a password from someone who refuses to give it up? Especially if one takes the view that there is no "martial mind control" and so there is no mechanical way to force a NPC to do something they wouldn't choose to do,

 

[Asisreo]

I don't get these claims. Doesn't the issue of whether spellcasters are "needed" depend on what the goals of the players are? I remember one game I GMed where the PCs wanted to recover a magic staff from the plane of fire. That's not really feasible without spellcasting - to plane shift, to protect against being roasted on the plane of fire, to actually find the staff using location magic, maybe other stuff I'm forgetting.

Or what about learning a password from someone who refuses to give it up? Especially if one takes the view that there is no "martial mind control" and so there is no mechanical way to force a NPC to do something they wouldn't choose to do,

But what was the goal?

Is the goal to get the magic staff, specifically? If it is, its easy. They only need to find a portal or two to get to the Plane of Fire. In fact, as long as they can get to any of the elemental chaos, they can then walk to the Plane of Fire even if they start in the Plane of Water. Doesn't this require DM dependence? Well, yes. Because the DM needs to make sure they always have an avenue to accomplish their goal in a mundane fashion. Because otherwise, they're forcing the players to have a specific build or not advance at all.

What if the party has a Goolock instead of a wizard? Their plane shift relies on DM-dependence now anyways. What if the wizard never prepared Wish or Plane Shift or Gate because their build had no need for them?

All adventures need to have the answer to all their problems without needing anything in particular from a character, especially if that character plainly doesn't exist in the campaign to begin with. It makes no sense to ask a group without planar travel to go into a different plane and refuse them a way to get there.

And if they can't get the password, they can always just break in by sneaking or go in guns blazing.