D&D 5E (2014) Have the designers lost interest in short rests?

[Don Durito]

You guys are do a good job of convincing me to go back to 13th Age for my next game.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think the power imbalance between fighters and wizards made a lot more sense in an old-school D&D context, where the game was less like what we now think or as an RPG and more like a roguelike that gradually evolved into war game. Yes, a high level wizard was individually far more powerful than a high level fighter, but a high level fighter also gained followers, which were largely under the player’s control. The choice wasn’t between the BMX Bandit or the Angel Summoner, it was between a single superpowered unit or a small army of mundanely powerful units. That’s a pretty standard tradeoff in a war gaming context, comparable to heavy artillery vs infantry. And that was if you even made it to high levels. Early-game, a wizard basically needed a fighter to carry them through the dungeon until they got enough gold and XP to start doing their cool stuff. It’s a very different kind of balance than what we think of in modern D&D.

Of course, the game has changed a great deal since then. The early-game experience of a small party of individual characters exploring dangerous territory has been extended across the entire span of levels, at the expense of that war game style endgame. In this context, it doesn’t make sense to have one type of character that starts out being dead weight and grows to be able to totally eclipse what other characters can accomplish as individuals. Accordingly, casters have gradually grown more effective at low levels and less overpowered at higher levels, while martial characters have gained a more fantastical endgame. The balance is still far from perfect - being able to make six attacks in one turn a couple of times per day and three attacks per turn the rest of the time is pretty respectable, but it doesn’t hold a candle to being able to wish for literally anything. But it’s closer than it’s ever been apart from 4e, and fans of the old school style will never be satisfied with that more RPG-like approach to balance.

 

[FireLance]

Actually, I'm wondering if the emerging playstyle is one that tends to ignore short rests.

This is anecdotal, and I run a game using non-standard "elite" classes which emulate 4E characters with A/E/D powers by basically gestalting a class with abilities that are mostly recovered after a short rest and a class with abilities that are mostly recovered after a long rest.

Despite having characters with both types of abilities, my players seem to prefer using long rest abilities like spell slots early and often, and taking long rests to recover them if there is no time pressure, instead of using their short rest abilities first and taking short rests to recover them while conserving long rest abilities for when they are needed. One case in point: during the last game session, the player of the Inspired Paladin (think Paladin + Battlemaster Fighter) offered to use Lay on Hands on the Arcane Monk (think Bladesinger Wizard + Four Elements Monk) instead of suggesting they take a short rest to spend Hit Dice even though there was no time pressure.

It's an interesting shift in approach because we were playing 4E, they would mostly use Encounter powers and only break out the Daily powers for tough fights.

 

[Don Durito]

One thing that would really bring casters in line combat wise would be a mechanic that prevents a nova.

Say you had a limited number of slots you could activate by level in a single encounter (or per short rest). Once you go above that number you risk exhaustion.

So for an arbritrary number. Say your limit is equal to level+ability score. So a fifth level caster has limit of 9. So he can use up to 9 spell slot levels before he needs a rest. So he casts one of his fireballs(3) plus a second level spell (2) and then follows up with another 2nd level spell (2). This brings him to 7. He has another fireball, but this would take him to 10 (over his limit) so he will need to take a short rest before he can cast another level 3 spell.

A wizard at this level has a total of 16 slot levels (4*1 + 3*2 + 2*1) so must actually take at least one short rest in order to use all his spells for the day.

 

[Garthanos]

Only if you as the DM let them.

One of the Core books (the DMG) contains actual rules and guidance for adjusting the length of the adventuring day to fit your own games pacing.

Yes it requires active DM fidgeting... instead of happening naturally and it requires a hmmm let us call it "self conscious" DM to notice it is happening limits which a more encounter driven design does not have. Additionally I do not have to adjust back and forth if the natural story pacing changes .... ie if your story results few encounters characters for a protracted time lots of exploration you think should I adjust and then a war story pacing sets in later. Protracted periods where its one way with no certainty that it might adjust and become the opposite. And its artificial feeling to me.

Shrug having less ability fluctuation and all classes capable of some climactic and better sustained helps with that and encounter powers help create that. Also basically everyone can do some nova. And everyone has some sustained.

On topic truer encounter powers make even more sense than the short rest ones in my opinion. Literal short rest ties them to "resting" and its a boring thing. My druid requires a scene change so the environment stops resisting the spell I cast.(its a new environment). My fighters trick is crappy when used against an enemy that just seen it. My priest must perform a one minute purification ritual to restore that miraculous ability. My old vancian mage has to spend a minute studying this spell since "amnesia" etc. CAN be much more flavorful.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes it requires active DM fidgeting... instead of happening naturally and it requires a hmmm let us call it "self conscious" DM to notice it is happening limits which a more encounter driven design does not have. Additionally I do not have to adjust back and forth if the natural story pacing changes

5E actively encourages active DM fidgeting. It repeatedly says as much in the Dungeon Masters Guide, and then provides you with literally hundreds of optional rules as suggestions to tweak your own campaigns to your style.

And how can you be a non 'self conscious' DM? How can that even exist?

Not that it needs to be adjusted back and forth either. Some adventuring days (the arbitrary amount of time between long rest resources refreshing) can be longer (favouring short rest classes) and some can be shorter (favouring long rest classes). That moves the spotlight and gives everyone at the table a chance to shine regardless of the class they're playing.

Or you could just decouple resource recovery from resting entirely.

 

[Garthanos]

5E actively encourages active DM fidgeting.

A metric ton of work even to get monsters interesting all ready the 5e DM might as well hang up his day job.

It repeatedly says as much

you say encourages I say requires it

And how can you be a non 'self conscious' DM? How can that even exist?

LOL you have different experiences of DMs than me ones who are not aware of the impact of things like pacing or "low" magic where that really meant mages get lots of spells but fighters got crap for magic weapons were very common back in the day as another example.

Not that it needs to be adjusted back and forth either. Some adventuring days (the arbitrary amount of time between long rest resources refreshing) can be longer (favouring short rest classes) and some can be shorter (favouring long rest classes). That moves the spotlight and gives everyone at the table a chance to shine regardless of the class they're playing.

Yes three months from now MAYBE it fluxuates into a war scene but who knows? What a great solution like AD&D where you had to go half a dozen levels being a wallflower because it would eventually even out right?

in the Dungeon Masters Guide, and then provides you with literally hundreds of optional rules as suggestions to tweak your own campaigns to your style.

and what I call poor explanations about the implications of many of those rules or why they might work better in combination with other ones or the implications on play or goals they might achieve, just not finding many of them seem that well presented or thought out.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There is absolutely nothing which a spellcaster can bring to the table that is indispensable. At all. There never has been. There is always a mundane solution to every problem (short of specific world-building issues, where the DM fiat declares that magic is the only option).

Given that fact, and the truth that fighters can (and do, and have always been able to) demonstrate sufficient steady-state power, the obvious solution is to hold spellcasters accountable. Don't let spellcasters voluntarily opt out of their shortcomings. Remove mid-adventure spell recovery as an option.

How does a party with no healer keep up with the expected number of encounters per day? Hit dice are not enough, and as you well know, feats are supposed to be optional (and aren't available before 4th level in general anyway). How does the non-caster party do that? That's why I said "indispensible."

As for "essential problem-solving tools," how does a non-caster party deal with flying enemies? Crossing a large chasm? Sending a message any faster than on foot or (if they can spare the coin) on horseback?

And don't you dare answer "they roleplay it out." Casters can do that just as much as non-casters can, and then some. I'm talking about the tools non-casters bring to the table. Where are the tools that do anything even remotely comparable to what cantrips can do, y'know, the parts of magic that exactly contradict your "peak and trough" comparison?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

And how can you be a non 'self conscious' DM? How can that even exist?

Quite easily. People who have power and experience and think they know what's best, and don't care what anyone else thinks. I've known a large number of such people, though I have been lucky enough to avoid having any of them as my DM. (My dad is one such person, for example. It doesn't matter that he has no training as an electrician; he claims "ten years studying" from reading about it. And will not listen to anyone saying anything else, no matter how illogical it might be.)

 

[Don Durito]

On topic truer encounter powers make even more sense than the short rest ones in my opinion. Literal short rest ties them to "resting" and its a boring thing. My druid requires a scene change so the environment stops resisting the spell I cast.(its a new environment). My fighters trick is crappy when used against an enemy that just seen it. My priest must perform a one minute purification ritual to restore that miraculous ability. My old vancian mage has to spend a minute studying this spell since "amnesia" etc. CAN be much more flavorful.

I'm not sure if it's intentional or accidental, but as I said at the start of the thread, having powers be short rest rathrn than encounter does serve a useful purpose. It breaks up the approach of characters across encounters. In 4E it wasn't unsual to see the Figher start every encounter with "Come and get it". After a while the approach to an encounter became somewhat predictable. (You can break that up with a well designed set piece that prevents players from using their favoured strategies - but that assumes both the ability to design one - and the kind of game where a set piece of that sort is doable.)

The short rest means the Fighter needs to consider their resources across more than one combat. This means that using Riposte for example, is a genuine choice (In 4E I had a barbarian with an interrupt encounter power - unless I was attacked by a minion it was pretty much an automatic choice to fire it off at the earliest possible moment) as I might make better use of the superiority dice in the next combat. Really Short Rest powers are basically putting the abilities on the same schedule as a 4E action point. (The rest is just the means not the end).

13th Age sort of addresses the same problem but from a somewhat different perspective, using the escalation dice to force a different kind of trade-off consideration (Do I use the ability now, when I'm more likely to miss? Or hold off until later when I have a better chance to hit, but the monster may also live longer and do more damage to the party?)