Heavy Blade Opportunity + Two Weapon Flurry

[Kordeth]

I disagree here. I believe you have it reversed and nothing in TWFl overrides HBO.

That's an impossible statement, because TWFl has the specific requirement of making an OA with your off-hand weapon. HBO doesn't countermand that requirement, so it still applies. The OA you make has to be an attack with your off-hand weapon, whether it's a melee basic attack or an at-will power.

TWFl is triggered when a successful opportunity attack is made with your primary weapon. It does not simply allow you to make an opportunity attack with your off hand. What it does do is allow you to make an extra opportunity attack (with your off hand weapon). Note that this does break the normal rules regarding opportunity attacks.

Ummm....what? TWFl does not allow you to make an OA with your off-hand attack, it allows you to make an OA with your off-hand weapon? You just contradicted yourself completely.

Now, HBO, on the other hand allows you to use, for an opportunity attack, an at-will instead of a basic attack.

Yes, but the attack still has to be made with your off-hand weapon. If I have a feat that gives me an extra attack when I use an axe, I can't choose to attack with an implement power instead, and if I have a feat that lets me make an extra attack with my off-hand weapon, I have to attack with my off-hand weapon.

In this case, we're going to use twin strike as the at-will that substitutes for a basic attack.

Only half of Twin Strike meets the requirement of the TWFl feat. If you try to use Twin Strike as the at-will substitute, you'd only get the one off-hand attack, because Twin Strike specifically says you make one attack with your primary weapon and one with your off-hand weapon.

Now, in order for TWFl to trigger, we must ask two simple questions.

First, is an attack with the character's primary weapon found in the power twin strike. And the answer is yes.

Second, did that attack successfully hit the target? If the answer to both questions is yes, then TWFl triggers and an extra attack roll is made (at -5) using the off hand weapon.

What are you talking about here? The two questions we have to ask regarding TWFl triggering are "are you armed with two melee weapons" and "did you hit with your OA?" Heavy Blade Opportunist absolutely allows you to swap out your primary weapon OA for Twin Strike, and if at least one of those attacks hits, you get a second OA with your off-hand weapon. HBO lets you replace that OA with an at-will attack, but that at-will attack still has to be with your off-hand weapon. Twin Strike is one attack with your off-hand and one attack with your primary. Only the off-hand attack is valid with TWFl.

It sounds bad, but it's really not any more powerful than TWFl without twin strike. Remember, twin strike does not add in STR to damage. It's slightly more damage than normal, but not that much.

It's four attacks for the price of two--Str bonus isn't that huge, and you still tack on enhancement bonuses, feat bonuses, etc. It can get pretty bad. I think you're arguing something that isn't what RigaMortus2 originally proposed and isn't what I'm arguing against.

Another thing I just thought of...

HBO allows you to use an at will instead of a basic attack for an opportunity attack.

TWFL let's you get off an extra opportunity attack. If you combine the two, would you be able to use an at will power for that extra opportunity attack, provided you have a heavy blade in your off hand?

This is the point we've been debating, specifically how it relates to Twin Strike. The answer is yes, you can use HBO to replace the extra OA from TWFl with an at-will attack, but once again the at-will attack has to be made with your off-hand weapon. Twin Strike is one attack with both weapons, and is therefore not able to be used with TWFl (in my opinion, at least). Any other at-will attack that uses the weapon in your off-hand is a valid replacement, though.

 

[RigaMortus2]

That's an impossible statement, because TWFl has the specific requirement of making an OA with your off-hand weapon. HBO doesn't countermand that requirement,

Sure it does. Because of HBO I can opt to use an At-Will during the OA in place of a melee basic attack (which attacking with my off-hand weapon would be considered).

Yes, but the attack still has to be made with your off-hand weapon. If I have a feat that gives me an extra attack when I use an axe, I can't choose to attack with an implement power instead, and if I have a feat that lets me make an extra attack with my off-hand weapon, I have to attack with my off-hand weapon.

Unless another rule comes around and breaks that one. Besides, under the normal OA rules, there is nothing that prevents you from making an OA with an off-hand weapon instead of your primary.

Only half of Twin Strike meets the requirement of the TWFl feat. If you try to use Twin Strike as the at-will substitute, you'd only get the one off-hand attack, because Twin Strike specifically says you make one attack with your primary weapon and one with your off-hand weapon.

Exactly. It specifically says you make one attack with your primary weapons and one with your off-hand weapon. And as it is written, specific overrides general. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Kordeth]

Sure it does. Because of HBO I can opt to use an At-Will during the OA in place of a melee basic attack (which attacking with my off-hand weapon would be considered).

But you're still using your off-hand weapon for the OA, you have to be, or you're not using TWFl! Look, if I have a heavy blade and a hammer, and I make a Twin Strike attack with both, I don't get to add Weapon Focus (Hammers) to the heavy blade attack just because part of the attack meets the requirement for that feat. Likewise, if I have an ability that lets me make an attack with my off-hand weapon, I actually have to attack with the weapon in my off hand. I don't get to ignore the requirement of the feat and attack with my primary weapon as well.

Unless another rule comes around and breaks that one. Besides, under the normal OA rules, there is nothing that prevents you from making an OA with an off-hand weapon instead of your primary.

1) No such rule exists. HBO defines what you can do with an OA, TWFl gives you an extra, restricted situation in which you can make an OA. They do not contradict, and thus neither overrides the other. Both apply equally.

2) Normal OA rules are entirely irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about an exception to the general rule, an exception that specifically and emphatically does say "you make an OA with your off-hand weapon."

Exactly. It specifically says you make one attack with your primary weapons and one with your off-hand weapon. And as it is written, specific overrides general. Thanks for pointing that out.

People misunderstanding what "specific trumps general" actually means is one of the biggest sources of confusion about 4E. Specific beats general only applies when a general rule (i.e. "you cannot use at-will powers as basic attacks") is directly contradicted by a specific one ("magic missile counts as a basic attack"). It is completely irrelevant to this discussion, because once again, there is no conflict. I suppose you could use Twin Strike as your TWFl OA, but since only the off-hand attack portion of the power is valid, you'd basically be making a basic attack with no Str bonus at a -5 penalty.

Let me ask you this: if a ranger wielded a longsword and a handaxe and had Heavy Blade opportunist, would you let him use Twin Strike and attack with the handaxe, even though the handaxe isn't a heavy blade?

 

[RigaMortus2]

Enemy triggers an opportunity attack, you are wielding two longswords.

HBO asks: Are you making an opportunity attack with a heavy blade? YES! Ok then you can use an at-will attack instead.

You use Twin Srike. Assuming the main hand hit, TWFlurry asks "Did you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon?" if the answer is "yes" then you can make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon.

HBO asks: Are you making an opportunity attack with a heavy weapon? Yes. Ok then make an at-will attack instad of a basic attack.
(I would rule as a DM here that this at-will uses a -5 penalty.)

TWFlurry again asks (Assuming the main hand weapon hit) "Did you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon" IF the answer is "Yes, then you can make an opportuity attack with your off-hand weapon."

I think we just keep going in circles, but that's how I see it playing out basically. You can't "break up" Twin Strike, either you use the power entirely or you don't. And since the power is actually replacing the melee basic attack you'd be taking from the OA, I think we have to go by Twin Strikes entirety (and should something trigger off of Twin Strike, such as making a successful OA with the primary weapon triggering another use of TWFlurry, so be it).

 

[bjorn2bwild]

This is the point we've been debating, specifically how it relates to Twin Strike. The answer is yes, you can use HBO to replace the extra OA from TWFl with an at-will attack, but once again the at-will attack has to be made with your off-hand weapon. Twin Strike is one attack with both weapons, and is therefore not able to be used with TWFl (in my opinion, at least). Any other at-will attack that uses the weapon in your off-hand is a valid replacement, though.

Oh wow... I totally missed that the discussion was about allowing twin strike twice. For some reason I thought that you were arguing that a character couldn't get three strikes off with HBO/TWFl/Twin Strike.

Too much sun today I guess.

Rigamortus, my humble apologies for completely missing the point of your post, and then declaring it later on in the same thread.

Well then Kordeth, I suppose forget pretty much everything I said, since we're arguing different things.

I would like to point out that, to my knowledge, any melee weapon at will power could be used for that off hand attack (with the possible exception of twin strike--if so, for the reasons you have noted). Since you can make a basic attack with either weapon you are holding in either hand, you can make an OA with either weapon as well.

 

[Kordeth]

Enemy triggers an opportunity attack, you are wielding two longswords.

HBO asks: Are you making an opportunity attack with a heavy blade? YES! Ok then you can use an at-will attack instead.

You use Twin Srike. Assuming the main hand hit, TWFlurry asks "Did you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon?" if the answer is "yes" then you can make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon.

OK, here's the part where I think we diverge--I'd consider the entirety of Twin Strike to be the "OA with your primary weapon." Meaning IMHO it goes like this:

HBO asks: Are you making an opportunity attack with a heavy blade? YES! Ok then you can use an at-will attack instead.

You use Twin Srike. Resolve both attacks. Assuming at least one hit, TWFlurry asks "Did you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon?" if the answer is "yes" then you can make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon.

HBO asks: Are you making an opportunity attack with a heavy weapon? Yes. Ok then make an at-will attack instad of a basic attack.
(I would rule as a DM here that this at-will uses a -5 penalty.)

TWFlurry again asks (Assuming the main hand weapon hit) "Did you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon" IF the answer is "Yes, then you can make an opportuity attack with your off-hand weapon."

Again, I'm pretty sure the entire at-will power counts as the OA, not each individual attack. This is why, as I said in another thread, WotC really needs to be more clear about when "attack" means "one roll of the d20 to determine if you hit or miss" or "one use of an attack power."

I think we just keep going in circles, but that's how I see it playing out basically. You can't "break up" Twin Strike, either you use the power entirely or you don't. And since the power is actually replacing the melee basic attack you'd be taking from the OA, I think we have to go by Twin Strikes entirety (and should something trigger off of Twin Strike, such as making a successful OA with the primary weapon triggering another use of TWFlurry, so be it).

OK, see, I've been arguing a slightly different point here--namely, that you can't replace the extra OA granted by TWFl with a Twin Strike because Twin Strike isn't an attack with your off-hand weapon. (Well, part of it is, and I suppose you could use that part, but that's a very subpar option). I don't think that point makes a difference as to whether you say you can interrupt Twin Strike (by hitting with the primary, triggering TWFl and resolving, then resolving the off-hand Twin Strike attack) or not (resolving Twin Strike, if you hit then triggering TWFl and resolving that), but IMHO you'd do it in the latter fashion.

 

[MrIllusion]

It sounds bad, but it's really not any more powerful than TWFl without twin strike. Remember, twin strike does not add in STR to damage. It's slightly more damage than normal, but not that much.

I think it's cool, but certainly not crazy

The whole point of this combo is that if the second Twin Strike is allowed, then it starts to loop itself, because your second Twin Strike would trigger off TWFL again.

So either the combo allows for a total of 3 hits (Twin Strike + one other At-Will), or it allows for an infinite number of Twin Strikes until you miss with the main-hand.

 

[RigaMortus2]

OK, see, I've been arguing a slightly different point here--namely, that you can't replace the extra OA granted by TWFl with a Twin Strike because Twin Strike isn't an attack with your off-hand weapon. (Well, part of it is, and I suppose you could use that part, but that's a very subpar option).

Since Twin Strike allows for one attack w/ primary and one attack w/ off-hand, you fulfill the off-hand attack criteria from TWFlurry. Its just that, you are also getting a primary attack as well per Twin Strike. I don't know that TWFlurry prevents the primary attack of Twin Strike, just that it is looking for that off-hand attack (which Twin Strike gives you).

Then of course we get into the loop part, where if the primary attack hits from Twin Strike, TWFlurry kicks in again.

 

[proto128]

I think we need to refer to the Rule of Cool.

Is it cool to use Twin Strike on an OA using HBO, and another Twin Strike OA using TWFl? The answer, I believe, is yes.

Is it cool to get seemingly unending attacks on an OA? Cool, but probably too cool for school.

As written, I'd allow two uses of Twin Strike, then ending the opportunity action.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

It ends anyway. After the second twin strike you've had your one OA against an enemy for the round and your one bonus OA that you wouldn't normally get from TWFl. Don't forget that you can't get a bonus from the same thing twice - the bonus in this case being that OA.