Creamsteak
Explorer
Despaxas said:
That won't be able to do it at all. Never. What spells did you think you were going to use to beat this thing? Meteor Swarm? Power Word Kill? With DCs that low... I don't see you doing anything.
Help me beat my DM :)
- Thread starter Despaxas
- Start date
That won't be able to do it at all. Never. What spells did you think you were going to use to beat this thing? Meteor Swarm? Power Word Kill? With DCs that low... I don't see you doing anything.
MerakSpielman
First Post
Jeremy said:
Just because he CAN cast inflict spontaniously doesn't mean he CAN'T prepare it with metamagic ahead of time.
Storminator
First Post
Jeremy said:
I only read the first few (10 pages? who has time to read them all?
), and I hadn't gotten to those yet. But my first thought is that Large and in Charge stops a whole lot of those smackdowns cold. Especially for a dragon with ~ +50 attack. AoO, stops Fleet Runner at 15 feet, and on dragon's turn PC is dead. I pretty much assume that if you are within reach of a Great Wyrm when its turn starts, you're toast. It doesn't even need a smackdown to do a couple hundred points of damage.
PS
LGodamus
First Post
Jeremy said:
Well let's see you could go with the Fleet Runner of Ehlonna smack which actually already has an 18th level variety figured out for 2640 damage (which would kill Tiamat in round 1).
Or Mr. Ginsu could hack the dragon's head off, what? Average 3 times in the first round?
Or 2500 points of damage off the second Iaijutsu Smackdown...
Or the polymorphed 4 armed archer smackdown for 1384 points of damage.
Or if you don't mind being evil you could try 4-6 thousand points of damage off the akutenshi smack.
Or you could go with the priest of mystra with the 43+spell level DC's and then target the dragon's reflex or will saves with heightened DC 52 saves. (Also beating a great gold's SR on a 6 or better.)
Or you could use my psychic warrior/deepwood sniper smack for up to 390 points of damage PER ARROW. That's 2 shots to kill a great gold btw.
'o Skoteinos gets his arcane DC's up to 57 with his red wizard/shadow adept/archmage build, you could purposefully go after a dragon's best save and still nail them with that.
Well, anyways, suffice it to say, there are plenty of things in there that can make a 660 hp dragon seem like a small fry. And there are also plenty of things in there that a non-vanilla MM dragon could use himself.
So who wins init?
So I guess you missed the part about him only being able to use the core books , huh??
Jeremy
Explorer
Large and In Charge is a great feat. Let's hope the dragon doesn't take it.
But if it does, winning initiative, having a few ranks in tumble, or spring attack will totally negate it. Blink, displacement, or high AC will go far to prevent it. Super strength could possibly circumvent it. And a tower shield will provide enough cover to cancel AofO's.
None of which matters if the dragon gets disintegrated by a DC 57 (or DC 60 with greater magical flow enhancement and spell enhancer).
But it's still even money. I'm just saying, it's not locked in the dragon's favor until the init rolls are down.
Let's hope the dragon doesn't take it.But if it does, winning initiative, having a few ranks in tumble, or spring attack will totally negate it. Blink, displacement, or high AC will go far to prevent it. Super strength could possibly circumvent it. And a tower shield will provide enough cover to cancel AofO's.
None of which matters if the dragon gets disintegrated by a DC 57 (or DC 60 with greater magical flow enhancement and spell enhancer).
But it's still even money. I'm just saying, it's not locked in the dragon's favor until the init rolls are down.
Jeremy
Explorer
Actually, yeah, I did miss that!
I read the
part and missed the later on where he listed his first option and asked for only DMG items. In that case...
Bye-bye PC! The dragon now has all the advantages and you are left unable to pierce his spell resistance, beat his saves, or do enough damage to overcome the fact that it's 18 hd vs 41 hd.
You lose!
I read the
Hail all,
I've got this bet with my DM that I can build a character of 18th level that will wipe out any dragon he throws at me (no Gods, or weird dragons, just the ones in the MM).
What I'm thinking of so far is either a sorcerer or a wizard with:
-Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration
-SR thru some item, or PrC
-Ring of Spell Turning (handy dandy)
-Permanent True Seeing (for pesky invis dragons)
-Gate, Gate and Gate some more (thinking Solars here)
-Time Stop (then see Gate)
Now I need some ideas on how to proceed from here, what spells would be good against dragons, and no I don't know which type. What items are a must-have, etc. Strategies, tactics, you name it. Help me defeat my DM
part and missed the later on where he listed his first option and asked for only DMG items. In that case...
Bye-bye PC! The dragon now has all the advantages and you are left unable to pierce his spell resistance, beat his saves, or do enough damage to overcome the fact that it's 18 hd vs 41 hd.
You lose!
Storminator
First Post
Jeremy said:Large and In Charge is a great feat.
But if it does, winning initiative, having a few ranks in tumble, or spring attack will totally negate it. <SNIP>
I always played that Spring Attack doesn't counter the AoO from reach. Perhaps there's a clarification I am unaware of. I freely admit that I'm not even a player in the smackdown arena.
And I agree, Init is key. I still think the PC he posted is going to get smoked.
PS
Jeremy
Explorer
Using just the monster manual you could be up against a:
GREAT WYRM HALF-CELESTIAL GOLD DRAGON
Colossal Outsider (Fire, Good, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 71d12+923 (1384 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 60 ft, fly 250 ft (clumsy), swim 60 ft
AC: 46 (+3 Dex, -8 size, +41 natural)
Attacks: Bite +81 melee, 2 claws +76 melee, 2 wings +76 melee, tail slap +76 melee
Damage: Bite 4d8+18, claw 4d6+9, wing 2d8+9, tail slap 4d6+27
Face/Reach: 40 ft by 80 ft / 15 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, spell-like abilities, luck bonus, detect gems, half-celestial spell-like abilities, frightful presence
Special Qualities: +4 save vs. poison, water breathing, immunities, DR 20/+3, blindsight, keen senses, SR 33
Saves: Fort +50, Ref +40, Will +49
Abilities: Str 47, Dex 16, Con 37, Int 35, Wis 34, Cha 33
Skills: Bluff +82, Concentration +84, Diplomacy +82, Escape Artist +74, Jump +89, Knowledge (arcana, architecture, geography, history, nature, nobility, planes, religion, plus any 3) +83, Listen +85, Scry +83, Search +83, Sense Motive +83, Spellcraft +83, Spot +85
Feats: Hover, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Snatch, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Evocation), Alertness, Wingover, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Sunder, 7 more
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge Rating: 28
Alignment: Always lawful good
SA–Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of fire, 70 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 24d10, Reflex half DC 58. This dragon can use a cone of weakening gas instead, forcing subjects who fail a Fortitude save to take 12 points of temporary Strength damage.
SA–Frightful Presence (Ex): Dragons can unsettle foes with their mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically (radius 360 ft) whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. A potentially affected creature (one with less than 71 HD) that succeeds at a Will save (DC 56) remains immune to that dragon's frightful presence for one day. On a failure, creatures with 4 or fewer HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with more than 5 HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.
SA–Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day - polymorph self and bless; 1/day - geas/quest, sunburst, foresight.
SA–Luck Bonus (Sp): Once per day the dragon can touch one gem (usually embedded in the dragon's hide) and enchant it to bring good luck. As long as the dragon carries the gem, it and every good creature in a 120 foot radius receives a +1 luck bonus as per stone of good luck. If the dragon gives the gem to another creature, only the bearer gets the bonus. The enchantment lasts 1d3+36 hours but ends if the gem is destroyed.
SA–Detect Gems (Sp): 3/day, the dragon can use this ability. Similar to detect magic, this spell finds only gems. Studying for one round reveals presence or absence of gems, 2 rounds reveals exact number of gems, and 3 rounds reveals exact location, type, and value.
SA–Half-Celestial Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day-protection from evil, holy aura; 1/day-bless, aid, detect evil, cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, holy smite, remove disease, dispel evil, holy word, hallow, symbol, summon monster IX (celestials only), resurrection.
SQ–Immunities (Ex): Immune to acid, cold, disease, electricity, sleep, paralysis.
SQ–Water Breathing (Ex): This dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapons, spells, and other abilities while submerged.
SQ–Blindsight (Ex): Dragons can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues); this dragon's range is 360 feet.
SQ–Keen Senses (Ex): Dragons can see four times as well as humans in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. They also have darkvision (range 1200 feet).
Spells Known (cast 6/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/5; as a level 19 sorcerer):
0–detect magic, resistance, detect poison, read magic, dancing lights, ghost sound, mage hand, open/close, mending; 1–endure elements, mage armor, divine favor, cure light wounds, shield; 2–bull's strength, cat's grace, blur, endurance, fog cloud; 3–haste, dispel magic, protection from elements, slow; 4–spell immunity, dimension door, improved invisibility, detect scrying; 5–cloudkill, righteous might, dominate person, teleport; 6–heal, greater dispelling, harm; 7–spell turning, destruction, greater scrying; 8–mass charm, maze, protection from spells; 9–miracle, foresight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that's if it's using NOTHING from it's horde. Add in some precast spells like mage armor, divine favor, shield, bull's strength, cat's grace, blur, endurance, haste, improved invisibility, righteous might, spell turning, and protection from spells and it's even more ugly.
The PHB has nothing that can compete with that. The DMG has nothing that can compete with that. Maybe a sphere of annihilation, but you'd just end up getting annihilated by it because you now don't have access to spells like fox's cunning etc.
Dead PC!
GREAT WYRM HALF-CELESTIAL GOLD DRAGON
Colossal Outsider (Fire, Good, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 71d12+923 (1384 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 60 ft, fly 250 ft (clumsy), swim 60 ft
AC: 46 (+3 Dex, -8 size, +41 natural)
Attacks: Bite +81 melee, 2 claws +76 melee, 2 wings +76 melee, tail slap +76 melee
Damage: Bite 4d8+18, claw 4d6+9, wing 2d8+9, tail slap 4d6+27
Face/Reach: 40 ft by 80 ft / 15 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, spell-like abilities, luck bonus, detect gems, half-celestial spell-like abilities, frightful presence
Special Qualities: +4 save vs. poison, water breathing, immunities, DR 20/+3, blindsight, keen senses, SR 33
Saves: Fort +50, Ref +40, Will +49
Abilities: Str 47, Dex 16, Con 37, Int 35, Wis 34, Cha 33
Skills: Bluff +82, Concentration +84, Diplomacy +82, Escape Artist +74, Jump +89, Knowledge (arcana, architecture, geography, history, nature, nobility, planes, religion, plus any 3) +83, Listen +85, Scry +83, Search +83, Sense Motive +83, Spellcraft +83, Spot +85
Feats: Hover, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Snatch, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Evocation), Alertness, Wingover, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Sunder, 7 more
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge Rating: 28
Alignment: Always lawful good
SA–Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of fire, 70 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 24d10, Reflex half DC 58. This dragon can use a cone of weakening gas instead, forcing subjects who fail a Fortitude save to take 12 points of temporary Strength damage.
SA–Frightful Presence (Ex): Dragons can unsettle foes with their mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically (radius 360 ft) whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. A potentially affected creature (one with less than 71 HD) that succeeds at a Will save (DC 56) remains immune to that dragon's frightful presence for one day. On a failure, creatures with 4 or fewer HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with more than 5 HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.
SA–Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day - polymorph self and bless; 1/day - geas/quest, sunburst, foresight.
SA–Luck Bonus (Sp): Once per day the dragon can touch one gem (usually embedded in the dragon's hide) and enchant it to bring good luck. As long as the dragon carries the gem, it and every good creature in a 120 foot radius receives a +1 luck bonus as per stone of good luck. If the dragon gives the gem to another creature, only the bearer gets the bonus. The enchantment lasts 1d3+36 hours but ends if the gem is destroyed.
SA–Detect Gems (Sp): 3/day, the dragon can use this ability. Similar to detect magic, this spell finds only gems. Studying for one round reveals presence or absence of gems, 2 rounds reveals exact number of gems, and 3 rounds reveals exact location, type, and value.
SA–Half-Celestial Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day-protection from evil, holy aura; 1/day-bless, aid, detect evil, cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, holy smite, remove disease, dispel evil, holy word, hallow, symbol, summon monster IX (celestials only), resurrection.
SQ–Immunities (Ex): Immune to acid, cold, disease, electricity, sleep, paralysis.
SQ–Water Breathing (Ex): This dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapons, spells, and other abilities while submerged.
SQ–Blindsight (Ex): Dragons can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues); this dragon's range is 360 feet.
SQ–Keen Senses (Ex): Dragons can see four times as well as humans in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. They also have darkvision (range 1200 feet).
Spells Known (cast 6/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/5; as a level 19 sorcerer):
0–detect magic, resistance, detect poison, read magic, dancing lights, ghost sound, mage hand, open/close, mending; 1–endure elements, mage armor, divine favor, cure light wounds, shield; 2–bull's strength, cat's grace, blur, endurance, fog cloud; 3–haste, dispel magic, protection from elements, slow; 4–spell immunity, dimension door, improved invisibility, detect scrying; 5–cloudkill, righteous might, dominate person, teleport; 6–heal, greater dispelling, harm; 7–spell turning, destruction, greater scrying; 8–mass charm, maze, protection from spells; 9–miracle, foresight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that's if it's using NOTHING from it's horde. Add in some precast spells like mage armor, divine favor, shield, bull's strength, cat's grace, blur, endurance, haste, improved invisibility, righteous might, spell turning, and protection from spells and it's even more ugly.
The PHB has nothing that can compete with that. The DMG has nothing that can compete with that. Maybe a sphere of annihilation, but you'd just end up getting annihilated by it because you now don't have access to spells like fox's cunning etc.
Dead PC!
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