Help me min/max this character concept please.

[iwatt]

My next character is going to be a human rogue focused in the social skills. He's a disgraced noble forced into adventuring because of his gambling debts and unsavory reputation as a duelist. From the skills the character is probably going to be very good in social interactions, but I want him to be fairly competent in combat as well (he's a well trained rapier user).
Another important note is that one of the other PC's is gonna be either half-rc or half-ogre (we hope the DM allows him this) barbarian. The idea is that this character is gonna be the Chewie to my Han Solo. So I'm leaning towards a Spring attack shtick, were I'll leap in to help my buddy and then leap out. But since he's a Duelist I thought I'd take Expert Tactician as well. The build I'm proposing up to 6th level is:

Level Class BAB Feats and Abilities
1 Rogue 0 Weapon Finesse, Combat
Reflexes, SA +1d6
2 Rogue 1 Evasion
3 Rogue 2 Expert Tactician, Uncanny
Dodge (DEX), SA +2d6
4 Fighter 3 Dodge
5 Fighter 4 Mobility
6 Rogue 5 Spring Attack

since he's gonna have a high bluff skill, I though expert tactician was useful, although it pushes my spring attack back. Pity they errated Expert tactician to have Combat reflexes as a prerequisite.

The resources I'm using are the latest 3.0 WOTC material plus all of the FR stuff.

Now please poke holes into this build and propose alternate builds please.

 

[Henry]

Moved to D&D Rules.

 

[wolff96]

1 Rogue 0 Weapon Finesse, Combat
Reflexes, SA +1d6

You can't take Weapon Finesse at first level if that level is rogue. It requires a +1 BAB.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

Re: Re: Help me min/max this character concept please.

You can't take Weapon Finesse at first level if that level is rogue. It requires a +1 BAB.

So you better take Dodge at 1st level and Weapon Finesse at 3rd.

Maitre D

 

[iwatt]

You're right. I was so worried about the prerequisites of the other feats I didn't even check weapon finesse.
So now I modified the builds to these two options:

Build 1
Level Type BAB Feats and Abilities
1 Rogue 0 Dodge, Combat Reflexes, SA +1d6
2 Fight. 1 Weapon Finesse
3 Rogue 2 Mobility, Evasion
4 Rogue 3 Uncanny Dodge (DEX), SA +2d6
5 Fight. 4 Spring Attack
6 Rogue 5 Expert Tactician
7 Rogue 5 SA +3d6
8 Rogue 6 Uncanny Dodge (no Flank)


Build 2
Level Type BAB Feats and Abilities
1 Rogue 0 Dodge, Combat Reflexes, SA +1d6
2 Fight. 1 Weapon Finesse,
3 Rogue 2 Expert Tactician, Evasion
4 Rogue 3 Uncanny Dodge (DEX), SA +2d6
5 Fight. 4 Mobility
6 Rogue 5 Spring Attack
7 Rogue 5 SA +3d6
8 Rogue 6 Uncanny Dodge (no Flank)


The first build get's the earliest possible shot at Spring Attack for a Fighter/Rogue (Level 5) while setting up for Expert Tactician pretty early as well. The second build allows for early Expert Tactician (which has +2 BAB, Combat Reflexes) as prerequisites.

I don't know which one is more convenient. I want weapon finesse the earliest possible to jack up my attack roll.

I thinks both these builds give a good feel of what I'm looking for. Now I'm hoping for somebody to propose a different build (maybe some other feats) which would make this character slightly stronger. No TWF because the hole idea is to use and abuse spring attack, and I do want to play a classsic fencer.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Check with your DM to see how and if Expert Tactician works with bluff. I would follow the line of thinking that says that expert tactician doesn't kick in on instantaneous dex losses like those created by a successful bluff.

Eg.
Round 1: Rogue type bluffs the fighter; fighter still has dex bonus
Round 2: Rogue declares an attack; fighter still has dex bonus
Round 2.1: Rogue makes first attack; since this is the rogue's "next attack" the fighter is denied his dex bonus. (Add sneak attack damage)
Round 2.2: The rogue continues the full attack taking his secondary attack; since this is no longer the rogue's "next" attack, the fighter is no longer denied his dex bonus.


Since the expert tactician attack would have to be taken either before or after the character's normal attacks (as per the Song and Silence text), allowing it to kick in in this situation whould mean that it would have to take place either before or after the first attack.

Before doesn't work because the target isn't denied his dex bonus until the rogue's next attack and there's therefore no reason for expert tactician to kick in before the attack.

After the attack doesn't work either because the target isn't denied his dex bonus any more (since it's no longer the rogue's "next attack").

So, I would rule that expert tactician works only in situations where the target would be denied his dex bonus for the duration of the character's actions. So, if the rogue is invisible, expert tactician will kick in (of course, unless it's Improved Invisibility) the expert tactician attack will break the invisibility and the target will have his dex bonus against the rest of the attacks. Similarly, Expert tactician kicks in against (most) flatfooted opponents, when the rogue is blinking, when his enemies are blinded, etc.

So, check with your DM. If he interprets the rule like I do, then Expert Tactician won't do what I suspect you want it to.

 

[Darklone]

I'd rather go for 4 levels of fighter. Weapon Spec instead of an additional d6 sneak attack rocks and you can always use more hitpoints.

Check out the KoK PG, it has some nice feats (Regal bearing, Noble Bearing) for your background.

What I would do for combat minmax: I would forget the Spring attack stuff if you don't plan to go the full whirlwind stuff. Tumble should be doing well enough and you might think about a polearm or Spiked Chain anyways with Combat Reflexes.

Rog1: Combat Reflexes, Ambidexterity or Dodge.
Rog1/Ftr1: Weapon Finesse (rapier/buckler)
Rog2/Ftr1: TWF or Mobility
Rog2/Ftr2: Shield Specialisation
Rog3/Ftr2: nada.
Rog3/Ftr3: Weapon Focus(rapier)
Rog3/Ftr4: Weapon Spec(rapier)
Lvl9 Spring attack or Expertise

For a variant rog/fighter, check out the brigand class in the PG.

 

[satori01]

You might consider swapping combat reflexes for expertise, especialy if you are going to be using the rapier.
Expertise can allow you to maximize your AC while you get into position for sneak attacks.

It also thematicaly fits perfectly with fencing techniques in the real world, most fencers use very sparring attacks at first to probe the opponents defense for the perfect time to strike.
Historicaly the first person that scored a solid hit in a real rapier fight won, as 3 inches of steel entering almost any part of your body is fatale.

Two weapon fighting is also a good way to get the most out of your sneak attack.

 

[nytflyr]

Why not start as an aristocrat?

 

[Darklone]

Why not start as an aristocrat?

He asked for minmaxxing