Help with a Prestige Class - Students of the Perfect Cut

[Psychic Warrior]

So tell me what you think. is this way too powerful for a PrC? Too weak? What would you change/add to it. Note that I runa fairly high-power/low magic game so letting a character or two learn this PrC wouldn't bother me. i just wonder if it is too weak/powerful. I find that hard to judge in this case.


Prestige Class- Students of the Perfect Cut
Members of this society hold to one ideal- with the right knowledge, and under the right conditions, it is possible to destroy any animate creature with one blow, the perfect cut.

prerequisites:
ability to sneak attack
Ability to cast true strike
Combat Expertise
Base attack bonus +6
At least 2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes)

Stats
BAB progression:Fighter
hit Dice :d8
Save progression:Rogue
Skill points per: 6+INT bonus

Skill list: Balance, Bluff, Disable device, gather information,
Knoledge (arcana, nature, planes, religion)Listen,
open lock, search, sense motive, sleight of hand, spot, tumble, use magic device

Benefits
Sneak attack: +1d6 at 1st and every second level after
2nd level power - 'Cut the cord'. The student uses their understanding of the basic principles of anatomy and necromantic arts to gain the ability to sneak attack and critical corporeal undead.

3rd level: +1d6 sneak attack, Perfect cut 1/day- A successful critical hit on a sneak attack has a chance to instantly kill the opponent (fort save negates, DC is 10+INT bonus+prestige class level)

4th level power - 'sever the roots' the student can now sneak attack and critical plants

5th level +1d6 sneak attack

6th level power - 'shatter the keystone' the student can now sneak attack and critical constructs, Perfect Cut 3/day

7th level +1d6 sneak attack

8th level power - 'scatter the elements' the student can now sneak attack and critical elementals

9th level +1d6 sneak attack, perfect cut unlimited times per day

10th Level - 'Undo the spirit' can sneak attack and critical incorporeal creatures.

 

[DanMcS]

So tell me what you think. is this way too powerful for a PrC? Too weak? What would you change/add to it. Note that I runa fairly high-power/low magic game so letting a character or two learn this PrC wouldn't bother me. i just wonder if it is too weak/powerful. I find that hard to judge in this case.

I would go with too powerful. The character gives up, um, 2 skill points a level to gain a better hit die and BAB, and gives up a rogue's high level special abilities (like improved evasion et al) to gain the ability to sneak attack pretty much anything in the game, over the course of 10 levels.

He should probably get 2 or 4 skill points/level. The 3rd level special ability, "perfect cut", is the equivalent these two epic feats:

Death of Enemies
Prereq: Bane of Enemies, Survival 30 ranks, five or more favored enemies.
Any time the character scores a critical hit on one of his favored enemies, it must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the character's ranger level + his Wisdom bonus) or die instantly.

Devestating Critical
Prerq: Str 25, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (chosen weapon), Overwhelming Critical (chosen weapon), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (chosen weapon)
Whenever the character scores a critical hit with his chosen weapon, the target must make a fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + str bonus) or die instantly.

Notice the prereqs on those? Your prestige class gives you that ability at, um, character level 11 at the earliest I think (wizard 1, rogue 1, fighter 6 looks like the fastest way to get into this class, and then 3 levels of the PrC), against any target you crit on a sneak attack. An epic ranger can only do it to a favored enemy, an epic fighter can only do it with his chosen weapon, your PrC can do it to anything by 18th character level, because not only does his class give him sneak attack versus any type, it lets him crit any type. Perfect cut alone is pretty bad. You've limited it by times per day, which is a start, but it should probably be the pinnacle ability, and only 1 time per day at that.

I would also say, drop the sneak attack progression from every odd level to levels 1,4,7,10 or 1,5,9. Make the character give up something more to gain the ability to sneak attack AND crit all these types.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I would go with too powerful. The character gives up, um, 2 skill points a level to gain a better hit die and BAB, and gives up a rogue's high level special abilities (like improved evasion et al) to gain the ability to sneak attack pretty much anything in the game, over the course of 10 levels.

Yes. I can see that now. I had originally thought to give it d6 HD and Rogue BAB but decided to try this first.

He should probably get 2 or 4 skill points/level. The 3rd level special ability, "perfect cut", is the equivalent these two epic feats:snip feats
Notice the prereqs on those? Your prestige class gives you that ability at, um, character level 11 at the earliest I think (wizard 1, rogue 1, fighter 6 looks like the fastest way to get into this class, and then 3 levels of the PrC), against any target you crit on a sneak attack. An epic ranger can only do it to a favored enemy, an epic fighter can only do it with his chosen weapon, your PrC can do it to anything by 18th character level, because not only does his class give him sneak attack versus any type, it lets him crit any type. Perfect cut alone is pretty bad. You've limited it by times per day, which is a start, but it should probably be the pinnacle ability, and only 1 time per day at that.

Now those feats I have never seen before but I see your point. Even limiting it to crits on sneak attacks only still makes Perfect Cut too powerful. I was basing it off of the Assassin's 'death attack' ability but wasn't sure how to balance it with the 3 rounds of observation limit of the assassin.

I would also say, drop the sneak attack progression from every odd level to levels 1,4,7,10 or 1,5,9. Make the character give up something more to gain the ability to sneak attack AND crit all these types.

Yes also something I thought about but I figured I go with the first draft and add/cut from there. thanks for your input!

 

[Jdvn1]

Yep, another vote for too powerful. I think Dan hit the highlights, though.

 

[whydirt]

I agree with Dan's assessment as well, but I think you've got an exciting PrC there after some editing!

One thing I noticed is that it seems you just cherry-picked some of the Rogue's best skills and threw on some Knowledge skills. I don't see how Use Magic Device relates to the class, for example. Also, I don't think you need Combat Expertise as a requirement, but I might require Weapon Focus in a bladed weapon.

I'd say after you tweak the Sneak Attack and special abilities that you should be fine with 4 skill points per level. This character is likely to be triple classed coming into this PrC, so giving good BAB and, d8 HD, and 4 skill points isn't as powerful as it might be in other classes. Also, if you lower the Sneak Attack rate and tone down or remove the death abilities, I think it'd be okay to reduce the Student's BAB requirement down to +5.

Here's a rough idea of what I'm getting at:

Student of the Perfect Cut
Members of this society hold to one ideal- with the right knowledge, and under the right conditions, it is possible to destroy any animate creature with one blow, the perfect cut.

Prerequisites:
-BAB +5
-Ability to sneak attack
-Ability to cast True Strike
-Weapon Focus in a bladed weapon
-2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes)

BAB: Good (Fighter)
HD: d8
Fort: Poor
Ref: Good
Will: Poor
Skill points: 4 + Int modifier per level

Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana, nature, planes, religion), Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble.

Class Features
1st level: Sneak Attack +1d6
2nd level: 'Cut the cord'. The student uses their understanding of the basic principles of anatomy and necromantic arts to gain the ability to sneak attack and critical corporeal undead.
3rd level: Perfect Cut: 1/day the Student can automatically confirm a critical hit without a second roll
4th level: Sneak Attack +1d6
5th level: 'sever the roots' the student can now sneak attack and critical plants
6th level: Perfect Cut 2/day
7th level: Sneak Attack +1d6
8th level: 'shatter the keystone' the student can now sneak attack and critical constructs
9th level: Perfect Cut 3/day
10th level: 'scatter the elements' the student can now sneak attack and critical elementals; Sneak Attack +1d6

 

[the Jester]

This class is too powerful as is. The ability to sneak attack undead, constructs, etc. is huge. I think 2 skill points per level is about right.

I mean, this class takes a rogue and overcomes all of its combat weaknesses. Suddenly he's perfectly effective against even the best DR. No monster is immune to his sneakiness.

 

[the Jester]

prerequisites:
ability to sneak attack
Ability to cast true strike
Combat Expertise
Base attack bonus +6
At least 2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes)

I'm not sure why Combat Expertise is on there- I'd suggest either Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus instead.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Whydirt - thank you! Your take on the class is very interesting. I like the change to the Perfect Cut ability since the fellow who wants this in my game is much more of a finesse character. I thought Use Magic Device would be there because the class needs an inherent knowledge of how things work - in order to take them apart again.

the Jester - you're right. it should definately be Weapon Finesse. Don't know what I was thinking there. As for no one beign immune to his sneakiness - that is kind of the point. Although I admit it does now seem overpowered (especially seeing what it takes to get those epic feats that mimiced the Perfect Cut ability) the whole concept came about because a player in my group felt that too many things were completely immune to the sneak attack ability, rendering it, in my game at least, less than useful.

 

[Ruvion]

'cut the cord' i think is a far better ability than 'sever the roots' or 'scatter the elements'...
maybe it's better to place the order of the sever ability according to frequency of monster types (or availability that is dependent on the DM's penchant for picking monstes):
usually undead and construct being very popular compared to plants and elementals...
something like sever the roots, scatter the elements, shatter the keystone, and last but not least cut the cord.

I really like the names of these abilties...consider them taken to be incorporated as house feats!! Thanx~

I agree with Dan's assessment as well, but I think you've got an exciting PrC there after some editing!

One thing I noticed is that it seems you just cherry-picked some of the Rogue's best skills and threw on some Knowledge skills. I don't see how Use Magic Device relates to the class, for example. Also, I don't think you need Combat Expertise as a requirement, but I might require Weapon Focus in a bladed weapon.

I'd say after you tweak the Sneak Attack and special abilities that you should be fine with 4 skill points per level. This character is likely to be triple classed coming into this PrC, so giving good BAB and, d8 HD, and 4 skill points isn't as powerful as it might be in other classes. Also, if you lower the Sneak Attack rate and tone down or remove the death abilities, I think it'd be okay to reduce the Student's BAB requirement down to +5.

Here's a rough idea of what I'm getting at:

Student of the Perfect Cut
Members of this society hold to one ideal- with the right knowledge, and under the right conditions, it is possible to destroy any animate creature with one blow, the perfect cut.

Prerequisites:
-BAB +5
-Ability to sneak attack
-Ability to cast True Strike
-Weapon Focus in a bladed weapon
-2 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes)

BAB: Good (Fighter)
HD: d8
Fort: Poor
Ref: Good
Will: Poor
Skill points: 4 + Int modifier per level

Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana, nature, planes, religion), Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble.

Class Features
1st level: Sneak Attack +1d6
2nd level: 'Cut the cord'. The student uses their understanding of the basic principles of anatomy and necromantic arts to gain the ability to sneak attack and critical corporeal undead.
3rd level: Perfect Cut: 1/day the Student can automatically confirm a critical hit without a second roll
4th level: Sneak Attack +1d6
5th level: 'sever the roots' the student can now sneak attack and critical plants
6th level: Perfect Cut 2/day
7th level: Sneak Attack +1d6
8th level: 'shatter the keystone' the student can now sneak attack and critical constructs
9th level: Perfect Cut 3/day
10th level: 'scatter the elements' the student can now sneak attack and critical elementals; Sneak Attack +1d6

 

[Jesus_marley]

I had a similar idea to this one...

My PrC was designed around a chance for an instant kill. It incorporated alot of your designs such as the progression for criticals on non-crit creatures.

The mechanic was this:


Prerequisites:
-BAB +5
-Weapon Focus in a (legal for the class) bladed weapon

Restrictions:
Class abilities function only while using light, one handed, blade weapons and light or no armor.

Class Features
1st level: Sneak Attack (no damage) On a successful critical (while Sneak attacking), 25% chance of instant kill

2nd level: 'Cut the cord'. The student uses their understanding of the basic principles of anatomy and necromantic arts to gain the ability to sneak attack and critical corporeal undead.

3rd level: On a successful critical (while Sneak attacking), 35% chance of instant kill

4th level: 'sever the roots' the student can now sneak attack and critical plants

5th level: On a successful critical (while Sneak attacking), 40% chance of instant kill

6th level: Automatically confirm a critical on a threatened roll. 1/day

7th level: 'shatter the keystone' the student can now sneak attack and critical constructs

8th level: On a successful critical (while Sneak attacking), 45% chance of instant kill

9th level: Automatically confirm a critical on a threatened roll. 2/day

10th level: 'scatter the elements' the student can now sneak attack and critical elementals; On a successful critical (while Sneak attacking), 50% chance of instant kill.


It seems geared mostly towards a ranger or finesse fighter. I tried to balance the power level of the instant kill chance with the fact that you have to sneak attack (for no extra damage) AND get a critical to even have a chance. I liked alot of the flavour text so I incorporated it as well...