Helpless doesn't Hinder

[Zinovia]

Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I ran across something that lends credence to the idea that the "Helpless" condition needs to be defined differently or more clearly than it presently is.

Occupied Squares
Ally: You can move through a square occupied by an ally.

Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s square without provoking an opportunity attack.)

Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if the ally is prone. You can end your movement in an enemy’s square only if the enemy is helpless. However, Tiny creatures can end their movement in a larger creature’s square. If you don’t have enough movement remaining to reach a square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.

Standing Up: If you’re prone and in the same square as another creature, see “Stand Up,” for how to stand up.
Published in Player's Handbook.

Also under "Moving a Grabbed Target" it states that "...helpless allies are treated as objects; you just pick them up and move them.".

So this supports the idea that helpless enemies cannot attack - certainly they can't make opportunity attacks at all. Also, since you are allowed to stand in the same square as a helpless enemy, it further implies that they can't do anything at all. Helpless allies can be hauled around like so much luggage. This matches the English definition of the word "helpless". The helpless condition needs to be defined better than it is currently.

Of course I would never dare to diminish the awesomeness that is the "screwed" condition. It fits perfectly! "Sorry man, you're screwed". For a condition that just grants the ability to be the target of a coup de grace, "coopdegrable" is full of win.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry, but if WotC really had meant for "helpless" to resemble anything like what you or me thinks of when we hear the word (a.k.a. 3E helplessness), don't you think they would have errataed it by now?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When you look at the power, the helpless condidition is aplied when you are still immobilized... at least they can´t run... and chances are great that the helpless condition ends before the slow wears off...

 

[DracoSuave]

It's not misleading for someone coming from 3E, it's misleading for someone that speaks English. Defenseless isn't all that good either since you can defend yourself pretty darned well, the penalty of granting combat advantage is very small and hardly what I'd call defenseless. How about... Vulnerable.

Vulnerable's already taken, by, um, vulnerable to foo

Main Entry:help·less
Pronunciation: ˈhel-pləs; Southern often ˈhep-ləs also ˈheəp- Function:adjective Date:before 12th century
1: lacking protection or support

Seems this describes -exactly- what is going on.

 

[Zinovia]

Sorry, but if WotC really had meant for "helpless" to resemble anything like what you or me thinks of when we hear the word (a.k.a. 3E helplessness), don't you think they would have errataed it by now?

No.

It doesn't make sense because of the other uses of the word in the PHB. But whatever. shutting up.

 

[On Puget Sound]

In my world, helpless creatures can't take actions. Just like unconscious except they are aware of their surroundings. Depending on the ause of their helplessness, they might be able to speak.

 

[Thundershield]

I have a question related to the Face of Death spell.

On a hit it says:

"The target is immobilized (save ends). First Failed Save: The target is helpless (save ends)."

Now the question is, does the "first failed save" effect replace the initial effect. It has in most other cases seemed that way, where effects like "ongoing 10 acid (save ends)" turns into "ongoing 15 acid (save ends)" or "dazed (save ends)" turns into "stunned (save ends)" and turns into "petrified (no save)"..

And in those cases it was logical and progressive, but since Face of Death doesn't turn one condition into a more severe version (say, Immobilized into Restrained) but instead into a wholly different condition, do both then apply or does Helpless replace Immobilized?

 

[Tallifer]

Here is where Rules as Written seem to contradict Rules as Written, and I might prefer to interpret Helpless as being unable to take actions. However, that would give great power to a 9th level Orb wizard. At least with the spell of Sleep, the first attacks wake the target. Spell-imposed Helplessness is only ended by a saving throw according to this spell. One round of criticals will kill many monsters, but the problem comes when a Heroic tier Orb wizard (with luck) is able to lock down a Solo for several rounds of criticals.

Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I ran across something that lends credence to the idea that the "Helpless" condition needs to be defined differently or more clearly than it presently is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D&D Compendium Glossary
Occupied Squares
Ally: You can move through a square occupied by an ally.

Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s square without provoking an opportunity attack.)

Ending Movement: You can end your movement in an ally’s square only if the ally is prone. You can end your movement in an enemy’s square only if the enemy is helpless. However, Tiny creatures can end their movement in a larger creature’s square. If you don’t have enough movement remaining to reach a square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.

Standing Up: If you’re prone and in the same square as another creature, see “Stand Up,” for how to stand up.
Published in Player's Handbook.



Also under "Moving a Grabbed Target" it states that "...helpless allies are treated as objects; you just pick them up and move them.".

So this supports the idea that helpless enemies cannot attack - certainly they can't make opportunity attacks at all. Also, since you are allowed to stand in the same square as a helpless enemy, it further implies that they can't do anything at all. Helpless allies can be hauled around like so much luggage. This matches the English definition of the word "helpless". The helpless condition needs to be defined better than it is currently.

 

[Zinovia]

I believe this discussion arose precisely due to the Face of Death wizard spell. Prior to its introduction in Arcane Power, Helpless was generally only a rider on the Unconscious condition, and the definition on pg 277 of the PH worked fine. Once it became possible to apply Helpless as a standalone condition, that definition became ambiguous and inadequate.

I'm sorry for the tone of my last post back in July, but I had spent some time searching for supporting evidence for my argument, found some and posted it, and was dismissed with the "They'd have fixed it by now if it were a problem." It only became a problem after the publication of Arcane Power and really only in the case of that one spell. The PH section I quoted is pretty clear on the fact that a helpless enemy can't attack you. You can stand in the same square with them and they can't do anything about it. They cannot attack.

There are a multitude of terms defined in the books that have engendered arguments about interpretation in specific cases and have not been errata'd (i.e. Free actions after a charge). The lack of errata does not mean that there isn't a problem with the original definition of the term or rule. There's a lot of stuff that could be stand to be clarified.

The fact that Face of Death imposes Helpless after a failed save doesn't make that power too good, even if Helpless is interpreted to mean "lying there on the floor not moving". Even if you have to save to get rid of it, so what? It's a 9th level daily spell versus Sleep at 1st level. It ought to be better somehow, although I know that isn't always the case with higher level spells versus lower. I believe that spell is intended to totally eliminate the target's ability to attack if they fail that initial saving throw. It's unlikely to work on solos (aside from the initial Immobilize) because of their bonus to saves, unless you have an Orbizard casting it and applying all their ridiculous penalties to saves. That's more of a problem with the orb of imposition class feature rather than that one spell however.

If people want to interpret Helpless to mean "Coopdegrable" as defined by Flipguarder in a post above, that's your call. I feel you are dismissing the other usages of the word in the Player's Handbook.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, you -can- enter a helpless enemy's space. He'll OA you for your effort tho, so you don't necessarily want to. But he can't otherwise stop you, just as he cannot stop you from slicing his gizzard open.

Helpless is nasty enough -as is.- Don't go making it even worse just to clear up some unnecessary aesthetic of 'fairness' to a word. That's the -dumbest- reason to unbalance a system.