Here we go again: Rogues, Frost Weapon, and the Wintertouched Feat

[Venator]

I know this topic has been discussed in depth... but it appears as though the search function is not available (I haven't been around in months).

Does a Rogue wielding a Frost Weapon who also has the Wintertouched feat gain combat advantage when attacking a target who is vulnerable to Cold damage? Why? Where are the rules for / against this?

Frost Weapon (PHB 234)- Free action to deal all damage as Cold damage, at will.

Wintertouched (PHB 201)- Gain CA when attacking a creature vulnerable to cold with a power that has the cold keyword.


The issue seems to be whether or not the Frost Weapon applies the Cold keyword to each and every power used to deal damage with the weapon, if the PC is choosing to deal cold damage with it in the first place... If this is the case, can you please point me to the rule that makes it clear?

More simply… Does Frost Weapon give powers the Cold keyword on demand?

Taking it a step further... Is there any way to grant a power new, different, or addition keywords? Where is the rule to support this if it is the case?

Thanks guys.

 

[Kordeth]

Like racial powers and class powers, magic item powers often have keywords that indicate their damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item’s power and the other power all apply.

Doesn't get more cut and dry than that. When you use the power of the weapon which has the Cold keyword, you add the Cold keyword to any attacks made with the weapon. Yes, it works. Yes, it becomes an even nicer option when you combo it with Lasting Frost.

 

[BobTheNob]

I can see where you are coming from. This becomes a lasting ticket to grant permanent CA to a rogue. Part of the challenge of playing a rogue is gaining combat advantage, if we take this combination of rules all we have succeeded in is ahrming gameplay because a facet of the challenge is removed.

Its like a bad episode of Law and Order. A mass murderer is let back on the street because a layer found a loop hole. The law(the rules) is meant to uphold a purpose, but that purpose fails because people are willing to find ways to make the system work to their favor beyond the limits and intentions (example : see Orbizard!) regardless of the long term consequences.

As a DM we have many responsbilities. ONE of them is to interpret the rules, another is to ensure that these rules are not ending up in results that erode the game overall. You cant skirt the responsbility of tackling these loopholes and still call yourself a good DM.

Find a houserule that works for you, ensure that the players understand what it is and why you are doing it. I know I will.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I don't think that it is bad for the game at all.

1. The rogue needs a specific weapon enchant, so he can't choose other magic weapons that are quite popular for rogues.
2. He needs two feats two make the combo really work.
3. There are cold immune monsters.
4. He must hit first to gain CA with the following attacks.
4a. If he misses once (assuming 1 attack/round) he has to start over again.
5. Getting CA isn't that difficult without the combo.
6. If you have CA from another source one of your feats is useless.

ATM no ROG I would build would have that combo, because I think it is not that powerful anymore, because AV offers so many weapon enchants that are great without investing 2 feats and deal even more damage.

 

[Khur]

You are overlooking the fact that Wintertouched only applies to monsters vulnerable to cold. "Vulnerable" is a mechanical state (such as immune, or resist), and doesn't merely mean "susceptible." Looking over monsters actually vulnerable to cold in the game currently, the Wintertouched feat doesn't do that much for anyone, including the rogue.

 

[Kalbutt]

You are overlooking the fact that Wintertouched only applies to monsters vulnerable to cold. "Vulnerable" is a mechanical state (such as immune, or resist), and doesn't merely mean "susceptible." Looking over monsters actually vulnerable to cold in the game currently, the Wintertouched feat doesn't do that much for anyone, including the rogue.

Exactly, and that's why the feat Lasting Frost exists :
PHB 203
Lasting Frost
Benefit: Any target you hit with a power that has
the cold keyword gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end
of your next turn.

So with Lasting Frost and Wintertouched, a frost-weapon wielding rogue could hit a creature, and as long as it hits in following rounds would keep CA.

It's powerful, but not broken IMO. A rogue in my game has CA pretty much every round thanks to his Duelist's Dagger and flanking from other party members.
Moreover, this combo works continually on a single target, so it's good against solo monsters, but maybe not so much against multiple soldiers, for instance.

 

[jedrious]

You are overlooking the fact that Wintertouched only applies to monsters vulnerable to cold. "Vulnerable" is a mechanical state (such as immune, or resist), and doesn't merely mean "susceptible." Looking over monsters actually vulnerable to cold in the game currently, the Wintertouched feat doesn't do that much for anyone, including the rogue.

Until you add Lasting Frost, you know the paragon feat that lets you add vulnerability to cold 5 to any creature you hit with a cold power?

 

[Khur]

Exactly, and that's why the feat Lasting Frost exists . . .

Yep, you're exactly right. I should have said I agree with Kordeth/Black Knight Irios, but I was talking mostly to the OP, who doesn't mention Lasting Frost.

Lasting Frost makes it interesting. I agree with you that it's not broken. The real control on Sneak Attack is the once per round (which you can get around with some other character element choices). I don't mind a rogue getting CA almost all the time. Sure, combos like this cut down on the need for a rogue to maneuver, but selecting such combos is part of a player determining how he or she wants to play.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Nymrohd]

Tbh I think the extra damage from Frost vulnerability is a bigger deal than CA. A rogue has tons of tools to get CA as is.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I don't think that +5dmg for a special weapon enchant paired with two feats is a problem.

Take a look at reckless, bloodclaw, footpad's friend, radiant, and subtle weapons. They do not need feats tow work and deal starting at the +2 version an roughly equal amount of damage (except for the last two).