Hide in plain sight question

[Wippit Guud]

Just to reply:

A Shadow Companion would NOT drain its master. Get real.

Since when can a creature 'turn off' what it's touch does? If you touch a fire elemental, it's gonna burn you. If you touch a gelatinous cube, it's gonna acid burn you. It's not an activated ability, it's always there. If a shadow touches you, you get drained. If you touch a shadow, it's the same thing.

But, that'd diverting from the topic.

There is no "implied definition" that the shadow must meet size requirements. The description of HIPS explicitly states the requirements. 10 feet. Some sort of shadow. There it is.

From SRD:
Check: The character's Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see the character. The character can move up to one-half normal speed and hide at no penalty. At more than one-half and up to the full speed, the character suffers a –5 penalty. It's practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while running or charging.

Based on that, as long as a rouge steps into a shadow of any size, he can hide. Shadowdancers must be within 10 feet, everyone else must be touching the shadow. So, a blade of grass is casting a shadow, my rogue steps into that shadow, he can hide. Because nowhere does it say the shadow must meet a size requirement.

My way sounds better.

It also explicitly states that the shadow-dancer doesn't need anything to hide behind, which is another aspect of the supernatural ability. Again, no size requirement on the shadow.

I wasn't arguing about not needing something to hide behind

I don't know where you're getting the idea of "-10 to hide if you move". A hidden character can move at half speed without penalty. He can move at full speed with a -5 penalty.

I got the number wrong. I had assumed the party would be moving as normal... sorry, I picked the wrong number.

 

[geezerjoe]

ok ok ok ....

You guys have just made my internal debate external.



I'm glad to see that this is a debatable topic and that my contrasting opinions weren't totally unfounded. Of course get several hundred or thousand people together and you'll get a lively topic on just about anything

Thanks all!

Joe2Old

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Antikinesis has got it right. HIPS simply allows a SD to hide when under normal conditions he would not be able to. All other normal factors for the Hide skill remain in effect, unchanged.

A Shadow creature is just that, a creature (undead that only look like shadows, as per their description) and it does not count as a real shadow, thus it cannot be used by the HIPS ability.

I'm guessing it's legit to use the shadows of others to HIPS but he'll have to keep up if they are moving normal speeds (impossible to do unless he takes that -5 penalty), plus enemies will be able to use their spot as normal to see him.

Keep in mind that if the SD makes an attack he can no longer Hide, being impossible to use the Hide skill. The description for Hide only states that the Hide skill is used for movement.

 

[Cyraneth]

Really...?

Since when can a creature 'turn off' what it's touch does? If you touch a fire elemental, it's gonna burn you. If you touch a gelatinous cube, it's gonna acid burn you. It's not an activated ability, it's always there. If a shadow touches you, you get drained. If you touch a shadow, it's the same thing.

I've had the impression that creatures must hit with their attacks to cause a desired effect, not just be in contact with their target. Vampires would otherwise have a hard time feeding off of the blood of their dominated thralls (causing two negative levels every 6 seconds), and monks would have a hard time fighting any creature that causes anything with its touch, since the monk usually touches the creature with his/her bare hands/feet/head/torso while attacking.

Just a moment's thoughts...

- Cyraneth

 

[Hypersmurf]

Since when can a creature 'turn off' what it's touch does? If you touch a fire elemental, it's gonna burn you. If you touch a gelatinous cube, it's gonna acid burn you. It's not an activated ability, it's always there. If a shadow touches you, you get drained. If you touch a shadow, it's the same thing.

From the DMG p72, "Ability Score Loss":

The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores (such as shadows draining Strength) is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attack or natural weapons."

From p75, "Energy Drain":

Most energy drains require a successful melee attack - mere physical contact is not enough.

-Hyp.

 

[Cyraneth]

From the DMG p72, "Ability Score Loss":

The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores (such as shadows draining Strength) is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attack or natural weapons."

From p75, "Energy Drain":

Most energy drains require a successful melee attack - mere physical contact is not enough.

-Hyp.

My point exactly.
Thanks, Hyp.
I didn't have my books at hand.

- Cyraneth

 

[Antikinesis]

Antikinesis, are you saying that a Shadowdancer ignores penalties and modifiers to Hide? [...text snipped for brevity...] I'd like you to please clarify your position on this, other then to say "it makes it useless" [...snip...].

I did not say that a shadow-dancer ignores all hide penalties. My disagreement was with your invention of epic-level circumstance penalties based on the size of the shadow.

Since when can a creature 'turn off' what it's touch does? If you touch a fire elemental, it's gonna burn you. If you [...snip...]. If a shadow touches you, you get drained. If you touch a shadow, it's the same thing.

Already addressed by other posters. (Thanks, guys.)

So, a blade of grass is casting a shadow, my rogue steps into that shadow, he can hide. Because nowhere does it say the shadow must meet a size requirement.

A blade of grass next to a candle can cast a shadow that fills a room. If that shadow is compressed by the angle and distance of the light source, who's to say that a shadow-dancer's supernatural ability to hide won't function?

My way sounds better.

As you wish. It makes a delightful house rule.

I got the number [for moving-while-hiding penalty] wrong. I had assumed the party would be moving as normal... sorry, I picked the wrong number.

Okay. No biggie.

---AK

 

[Wippit Guud]

From p75, "Energy Drain":

Most energy drains require a successful melee attack - mere physical contact is not enough.

-Hyp.

Ok... so most do... which ones don't?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ok... so most do... which ones don't?

Given that the Shadow is the example given of Ability Drain requiring an attack, I think it's safe to say that for the purposes of this discussion, we have the required information

-Hyp.

 

[Tellerve]

Have you all ever seen the anime Ninja Scrolls, and the ninja that can dissolve basically back into a shadow? I think that is a good way to look at HIPS. Since your staring at him and he just vanishes.

As for this debate, I'm not getting into it becasue people like Hypersmurf and the others who know what is going on have done it perfectly already.

Tellerve