D&D 5E (Houserule) Adding Int to Initiative for All Classes

[Stalker0]

Personally, I feel like Int is the biggest dump stat in 5e...taking the crown from charisma from previous editions. So unless your a wizard or other int based caster, you can go along with an 8 with almost no issues.

Now if you don't feel that way, I completely understand...but this will not be the thread for you.


While I could add in more Int uses to classes, I wanted to start a generic use for Int that everyone would find useful. So I came to the notion of Initiative. Int adding to Initiative is nothing new, its been thrown around in several editions. But it has a lot of advantages:

1) Initiative is universally loved. While some classes love it more than others, everyone appreciates a good Initiative.
2) It doesn't actually add power per say. All Initiative does is allow you to do something you could have already done (go first), just more often. So it fits well with bounded accuracy.
3) Flavorwise it works. The idea that "speed of thought" (Int) and "speed of body" (Dex) would be combined to determine your overall reaction speed has a good flavor foundation.

So I would just add this clause to Initiative.

Initiative: This is a dexterity ability check. In addition, add your intelligence modifier to the result.

I left it as a dex ability check so other abilities (like the Champion's Remarkable Athlete) still work properly.

My main question is, do you think it would make the Wizard too strong? This is going to be a key class feature of an upcoming wizard subclass, so clearly WOTC thinks its useful. Is it too powerful to give int based classes that bonus for free?

 

[Blue]

I've looked at doing this, but replacing Dex with Int for initiative. Narratively, speed of thought to assess a situation and start moving makes more sense to me for INT and speed of reaction makes more sense for AC. And I think DEX is too good, so I wanted not just to help INT but to also reduce DEX.

The only reason I didn't is that more people than I expected said that Wizards are already very powerful, and giving them the ability to go first more and what that means tactically for area of effect, has given me pause. But other than that I'm for it.

 

[Dausuul]

Seems fine to me. Yes, it helps out the wizard some, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off to boost the weakest stat and nerf the strongest.

 

[Blue]

Seems fine to me. Yes, it helps out the wizard some, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off to boost the weakest stat and nerf the strongest.

Note that he's not nerfing the strongest - it's still a DEX check, you just also add your INT.

 

[snickersnax]

I agree that intelligence has been undervalued in 5e and would benefit from a boost.

Reasons I like this: INitiative and INtelligence both begin with the same two letters.

Reasons I don't like this: All the intelligent people I know suck at initiative IRL. Acting first (in a combat situation) seems to me to be more of an act of present moment consciousness that I would associate with perception (wisdom). "Intelligent" people tend to have greater part of their thought processes engaged in searching for meaning, imagination, contemplating many things that are not present moment. In D&D that might be reviewing spells, organizing thoughts around arcana, history, religion, nature and other information.

IMO the best spots to look for a boost for high intelligence or a penalty for low intelligence that would make more sense to me are: bonus/penalty to experience (smart people learn faster), boost/penalty to skills and languages (smart people can learn more), boost/penalty to the number of known spells (a primary hallmark of intelligence is memory, a smart person should be able to know more prayers, more spells, more nature secrets).

Finally since animals are known for their low intelligence does it make sense that animals should be getting a penalty on initiative of -4 ish?

 

[Li Shenron]

I would rather try to replace Dex with Int as a bonus to Initiative.

Or even just roll Initiative as a bare d20 check without any ability modifier, similarly to death saving throws.

Finally since animals are known for their low intelligence does it make sense that animals should be getting a penalty on initiative of -4 ish?

I wouldn't mind. But perhaps all preys deserve a free initiative bonus.

 

[Horwath]

It would better fit wisdom rather than intelligence.

Wisdom in dnd is practical intelligence and cunning, then molded somehow with willpower and composure.

Composure is to stay calm in stressful situations and act accordingly. Initiative is that. How fast can you get your thoughts together and make a coherent action in response to outside sudden event.


But, I agree that intelligence is least used stat now.

Maybe add bonus language per point of bonus.

And extra skill proficiency per point of bonus(max 3 at 16 int).

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

The only problem is that once you expand the definition of initiative, it becomes easier to justify adding others. At the end of the day, all the stats could figure into initiative. You might act quickly mentally, and your reflexes might trigger your nerves to propel you but it's your Strength that actually moves you, etc.

 

[Mephista]

I think the main problem with INT is the same problem that CHA had in previous editions. In fact, I'd argue that CHA still suffers from - unless its your main stat, the skills just aren't very useful, and there's little reason to take it.

Sure, every part wants someone with Arcane knowledge. That comes up relatively often. But history, religion and nature? Not as much. Investigation is pretty weak compared to Perception. If you have one person covering the Arcane checks, you really don't need the rest. Same thing with CHA. You just need one person in the party to cover the social situations, and everyone else can safely ignore the stat.

WIS is universally good because its basically is mental CON. Resist most mental effects, resist social manipulation, resist stealth. Plus a few others like animal handling, survival and medicine.

When all is said and done, I think the main problem here is that WIS is just too good. You have all the same reasons people want a good CON (survivability), then you add in a popular stat for one third of classes (monk, druid, ranger, cleric) as well as a number of skills that everyone wants. 3e was really the only edition that I can remember where INT was so hugely important. It was a prerequisite for many feats, it added to skills, it taught you languages, and there were a number of classes that made use of it. Other games didn't put as much emphasis on it as I recall.

There's a couple of solutions you could try.

• Take inspiration from 3e for added skills or languages
• Tinker with classes so they use more Int for spells / techniques
• Move relevant skills away from WIS
• Make crafting important- crafting uses INT
• Reshuffle saves so players have to make CHA and INT saves more often
• Call for Int checks more - figure out how to work Nature, Religion and Investigation into the game and not come off as a poor man's Survival and Perception (and figure out an actual use for Religion?).

Also, if INT is being treated like CHA now, should something be done about CHA being a dump stat? The only reason CHA is used more than INT now is simply because we have 4 classes that use CHA for spellcasting (paladin, warlock, sorcerer, bard). Its not like anyone outside those four won't dump CHA just as easily as others. If that's the only criteria, then the only fair solution is to make INT relevant for classes like Fighters and Rogues (who have INT as a save).

 

[Li Shenron]

The only problem is that once you expand the definition of initiative, it becomes easier to justify adding others. At the end of the day, all the stats could figure into initiative. You might act quickly mentally, and your reflexes might trigger your nerves to propel you but it's your Strength that actually moves you, etc.

Yep, that's why it came to my mind that one option is also having Initiative a simple d20 roll with no ability modifier.