D&D 4E How did 4e take simulation away from D&D?

Well, the coherence of the fiction is your responsibility, but helping the players out with their narration is not (unless you are solely talking about NPCs interacting with them, or talking about reminding them of some important details that they learned 4 weeks ago, in which cases, those are your responsbility). But if you are talking about giving them ideas on what to say or do, then no, that's their responsibility.
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here.

About once per combat encounter, the player of the fighter PC in my game uses Come and Get It. Sometimes it is obvious what, in the game, this represents. (The PC is a polearm-wielding melee controller.) Ocassionally, as with the goblin example I gave upthread, this is not so. At that point, the options are (i) ignore the gap/looming incoherence in the story, (ii) rely on the player to fill it, or (iii) fill it myself. In principle, the rule at my table is (ii) - it's the player's job. In practice, though, this players turns take a long time anyway, and he's mostly focused on working out how many monsters he can get in the reach of his power. So I opt for (iii), which I regard as preferable to (i) - apart from anything else, it gives the other players details of the situation that they might want to latch onto.

This has nothing to do with giving the players ideas about what to say or do. Which sometimes I do also, because I'm a nice guy and I know the rules better than all but one of my players. But that's a different story.
 

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Or forage for herbs to make scented soap out of dragon fat with an alchemy kit (I've done this!). You COULD do these things, but you'd have to shape the rules a lot, or the DM could make them objectives... but the fact that my character could do it just as well as any other character and not be SKILLED at it takes a lot of fun away from it.

Will being skilled in making scented soap make you enjoy playing your character more? If yes, that's all the rule shaping you need. He's now more skilled than any other character at making soap (unless they're a rival soapmaker).

In these types of cases the only question that needs to be asked is "Does it makes the story better? Then it works."
 

Ocassionally, as with the goblin example I gave upthread, this is not so.

Yup. I just find this a serious flaw in the system. And, it's because the mechanics are not married to the fiction. Some people don't mind the abstract mechanics that they can just apply whatever "color" to it that they want. I'd rather play a game where it goes the other direction: you describe what you want to do, then we apply the mechanics to fit. Why? Because suddenly we're not using our character sheet and a list of powers to determine our next move, but our imagination and the fiction. We shouldn't be referencing our sheet until the DM says, "Hmmm. Ok, gimme a roll." (in most cases - I'm generalizing a bit to make a point).

But, that's my humble opinion.
 

I wasn't trying to illustrate an exact count. I was trying to illustrate a point.

But in answer to your question, a DM ruled scenario of this might be:

1) Minor Action to put dagger between teeth (who says that this is a free action? A PC shouldn't get a free action to hold an extra weapon when putting it away in his belt already has a rule and is a minor action, use the closest normal rule that fits).
2) Move Action to jump to the chandelier. It's ten feet away without a running start, so that's DC 20 Athletics check and 2 squares of movement.
3) Move Action: Continue Move Action to swing on the chandelier. The DM rules a normal DC 15 Acrobatics stunt and 6 squares of movement to get to the other side of the room next to the BBEG. The PC has used a double move at this point to go 40 feet. Free Action: Drop 20 feet next to BBEG. Acrobatics check to take no damage and not be prone.
4) Minor Action to retrieve Dagger again.
5) Standard Action to attack foe.

In the end, I think part of the issue is that this sort of thing will vary by situation. Is the PC trying to do a stunt to suddenly end up 100' away next to an enemy? That seems silly.

In this case, on the other hand? The stunt is providing the benefit of 10 extra feet of movement (by swinging off the chandelier) and potentially a free extra minor action to redraw the dagger as you fall.

If that honestly seems too much benefit for a stunt to provide... well, your call to make, I suppose. And like I said, every scenario is different, and every DM's threshold for what can be accomplished (or how difficult it might be) will vary.
 
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The group is telling the story. I'm not going to let a good idea go to waste just because it isn't in the head of the player acting at the moment.

This is probably just different DMing styles.

The group is telling a story, but stories can go down rabbit holes.

When the DM allows most every good idea that comes along to exist, then stories can splinter off into many directions.

As a player or DM, I have enough to remember without remembering most of the hundreds of good ideas that came along in a years worth of gaming.

The game seems cleaner if there is one or two major plots and a small number of subplots. The problem with "Just saying yes" and allowing most good ideas that come along to work is that it muddies the waters. There's no problem with good ideas that are temporary, but the ones that will affect the game for quite a while should be taken with a grain of salt by the DM.

I know that most of the players at my game have day jobs and/or go to school. They have lives outside of gaming, so their shared imaginative experience tends to be fairly simple with straightforward goals. Broad ideas that are repeated over time so that everyone gets a good handle on them.

Take the example of the Wizard's Guild in the DMG. On the surface, it sounds ok. But problems can come in if the players continue to add elements to that small town. Suddenly, there is a Temple and a Fish Market and before you know it, there's a small city there instead of a small town. 6 real months later, the PCs get back to that small town and a player states that he is going to the Fish Market and the DM doesn't remember anything about the Fish Market or the NPCs that he created on the fly there. Now, this is a bit of an extreme example to illustrate the point, but the idea is to NOT take every good idea that comes along and incorporate it into the game.

Sometimes, make the players struggle a bit to accomplish their goals. Don't just hand out the option on a silver platter because a player thought of it (regardless of whether that option turns out to be successful or not).

Instead of "Just say Yes", "Just say Maybe".

Instead of being at one extreme of the wide open group shared experience or the opposite extreme of the extremely narrow group shared experience, be somewhere in the middle. As DM, allow some things. Disallow some other things.

4E has a strong push within the DMG to focus the game on the desires of the players almost to the point where the players are taking control (an almost player entitlement mentality). I personally believe in a more balanced approach. The players roleplay their PCs and come up with good ideas, and it's the DM's job to use some of those ideas and discard others to make the world seem plausible (not realistic, plausible). The world is not plausible if every time a player thinks that there should be a Wizard's Guild or a Magic Item Shop in a town they get to, there is one. The DM should sometimes allow such a thing and other times, nope. You have to come up with a different solution.

This challenges the players and makes them feel like the campaign world does not revolve solely around the PCs. Just saying Yes But every time makes it seem like a game solely for the benefits of the players and the experience is less satisfying that way.

Sometimes, you say to the player "your PC knows that she's probably not capable enough to climb down the rope with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other, you can try, but your PC knows that she'll almost definitely fail". It's not a matter of assigning a penalty or making the task real difficult, it's a matter of shutting down a hairbrained idea before it starts. Some players will still be rebellious enough to try, but that's their choice. When the DM approaches this with "Yes, you can try that. But, it will be extremely difficult.", the player might not understand that extremely difficult means rolling a 20 on the dice for the Climb check twice in a row for the distance involved. Sometimes, it's better to just cut to the chase and let the player know that it's a really bad idea. Players should be able to figure this out on their own before even expressing the idea, but some of them don't.


And getting back to your point of not allowing a good idea because the player on stage at the moment didn't think of it, step back and think about that. The player who is on stage at the moment is effectively upstaged by someone else at the table. It's probably not a major thing, but for someone like myself who likes to give each player their fair share of table time and their fair share of solving problems or adding to the narrative, it's can sometimes be mildly annoying when some other player pipes in. Granted, it's a game with a group of people and a certain amount of that is unavoidable, but I do have strong opinions on letting each player be in the spotlight at the game.

Each player should get a chance to blossom at the table and I'll shut down any side idea no matter how good if it detracts with what that individual player is currently trying. Desires/ideas of the individual over the desires/ideas of the group. Over time, the group will meet consensus on a lot of things. But the fun of the moment is focused on the player in the spotlight. It's the ideas that that player expresses which I will be mostly be taking into consideration at that point in time.
 

(snip lots of good stuff)

And getting back to your point of not allowing a good idea because the player on stage at the moment didn't think of it, step back and think about that. The player who is on stage at the moment is effectively upstaged by someone else at the table. It's probably not a major thing, but for someone like myself who likes to give each player their fair share of table time and their fair share of solving problems or adding to the narrative, it's can sometimes be mildly annoying when some other player pipes in. Granted, it's a game with a group of people and a certain amount of that is unavoidable, but I do have strong opinions on letting each player be in the spotlight at the game.

Each player should get a chance to blossom at the table and I'll shut down any side idea no matter how good if it detracts with what that individual player is currently trying. Desires/ideas of the individual over the desires/ideas of the group. Over time, the group will meet consensus on a lot of things. But the fun of the moment is focused on the player in the spotlight. It's the ideas that that player expresses which I will be mostly be taking into consideration at that point in time.

Right, but this is where particular table and context matters a great deal. I am the dominant personality at our table and the DM, though probably half of the nine players are strong personalities, and the rest are only "weak" in comparison to the rest of us. It is also part of my nature to direct my dominant personality towards making others independent and stronger in their personalities.

So, for example, I long ago set up a rewards structure where a more dominant player got rewarded heavily for bringing a weaker personality into the limelight, as much as possible. It is a necessary requirement of a large group that wants to get anything done while still having everyone roleplay.

This came up a couple of weeks ago, and someone mistook my approach as dragging the player kicking and screaming into the limelight, which I also don't like. My approach is to give every player opportunity for the limelight, try to coax them into it, but ultimately the decision is up to them. One of the big reasons why the "wallflowers" will try the limelight in our group is that they know that if it gets uncomfortable, one of the other players will jump right in there and help, and as soon as they get comfortable again, back off.

I think sharing the limelight is a group responsibility. So with players that already feel that way, I have nutured that heavily in our games.
 


That's what "just say yes" means, as mentioned several times. It's not about just letting the player do whatever he wants. It's about letting the player attempt whatever he wants, without flat "nope, won't work" rebuffs.

That's not the vibe I've gotten from WotC's use of the phrase, but it is a refinement that I can support in general.

A good GM is careful to avoid "No" as a knee-jerk reaction, although "No" is sometimes the best considered reaction, and sometimes "Hell no!" is even better! :lol: (Ex. "Can Raven Crowking play in our game this week?")

The best answer to "Can I jump the 1500-foot chasm?" is simply a shrug and a "You can try. It's your character."


RC
 

Saying no is just as valid a response as saying yes (or any variant thereof), for a DM. Just as appropriate, necessary, useful, for good gaming.

Being able to do so is a lost (forbidden?) art for some, it would appear. But, to say the least, no less valuable for it.
 

You know what's fun?

Making the characters with bad athletics and acrobatics rolls do a platforming segment, but give them enough of a 'safety net' and let the other players help enough that they can still get through.

The solutions that my party came up with were so crazy - ranging from mage-handing and arrowing ropes across, the halfling wizard being able to get past one area by running the others couldnt due to weight differences, characters jumping and being caught by the goliath (or in one case, the warlord's outstretched polearm), use of levatate to get an extra foot of jump clearance...


Saying no is just as valid a response as saying yes (or any variant thereof), for a DM. Just as appropriate, necessary, useful, for good gaming.

Being able to do so is a lost (forbidden?) art for some, it would appear. But, to say the least, no less valuable for it.

I prefer "Yes, but it's extraordinarily difficult or unlikely"

Like "hard DC + 5-10 levels"

If your party halfling really wants to try to eat the chair he's sitting on out of boredom, and you tell him, it's DC 30 and you're level 5, and if you fail it's probably a very bad thing for you, and he still wants to try, then sure, give him a chance. If he's helped and rolls a 20 it might actually happen and it'll make a good story for the future.

edit: there is of course some things within reason, like if the player says
"Can I use a religion check to try to eat the chair" then, you'd say "no, it's endurance unless you can explain to me what's religious about it. It's not a communion chair."
 
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