D&D 4E How did 4e take simulation away from D&D?

[KarinsDad]

That's what "just say yes" means, as mentioned several times. It's not about just letting the player do whatever he wants. It's about letting the player attempt whatever he wants, without flat "nope, won't work" rebuffs.

You misunderstood me.

A better phrase would have been:

Instead of "Just say Yes", sometimes "Just say Yes", sometimes" Just say No".

It's not just about how difficult something may be and the PC attempting it or not.


The phrase Just Say Yes is from the DMG and also discusses whether the DM wants to allow something in his world.

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told there are not any."

is just as valid as:

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told of one in the bazaar."

The second one here is not necessarily preferable to the first one.

 

[P1NBACK]

You misunderstood me.
Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told there are not any."

is just as valid as:

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told of one in the bazaar."

The second one here is not necessarily preferable to the first one.

Um. No.

Neither of these examples are saying, "No."

The first is an example of "Yes, you do, but there are none you can find (because there aren't any in this world, or because the DM made the PC roll Streetwise and they failed)."

The second is an example of "Yes, you do, and you find one."

Yes, but... Yes, and...

Here's 'saying no':

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "No. You can't."

Usually, followed up by, "Well, why the not?"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Just one thing:

i bet the one who put that come and get it power into the PHB is getting beaten everytime someone mentions it in a forum as the source of suspension of disbelief.

So for heaven´s sake. Just don´t.

 

[webrunner]

You misunderstood me.

A better phrase would have been:

Instead of "Just say Yes", sometimes "Just say Yes", sometimes" Just say No".

It's not just about how difficult something may be and the PC attempting it or not.


The phrase Just Say Yes is from the DMG and also discusses whether the DM wants to allow something in his world.

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told there are not any."

is just as valid as:

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told of one in the bazaar."

The second one here is not necessarily preferable to the first one.

You can always phrase the "No" as a "yes, but" like:

"You ask around and you are told there is one.. about a thousand miles west."
or
"You ask around and find a magic item shop" and when they get there, all the magic items are obvious forgeries and counterfeits. The party might even get a kick out of running the jerk out of town.

Edit: Reading above I also have another thing to say:

"I want to find a magic item shop" is the player asking for a specific outcome. What they actually are doing as players is "I want to look for a magic item shop" or "I want to find a magic item shop, can I look for one?"

It's like if they asked "I hit this guy." "Well roll to see if you actually do."

 

[Raven Crowking]

You misunderstood me.

A better phrase would have been:

Instead of "Just say Yes", sometimes "Just say Yes", sometimes" Just say No".

It's not just about how difficult something may be and the PC attempting it or not.


The phrase Just Say Yes is from the DMG and also discusses whether the DM wants to allow something in his world.

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told there are not any."

is just as valid as:

Player: "I want to go to a Magic Item shop."
DM: "You ask around and are told of one in the bazaar."

The second one here is not necessarily preferable to the first one.

This I agree with.

Rather than "Just say X", where X is Yes or No, why not "Just make a considered decision, and say what fits?"

Um. No.

Neither of these examples are saying, "No."

They are within the context of the WotC material (at least as I understand it when I read it).

They are not within the context of the refined meaning Fifth Element posted above (which is superior to that used by WotC, or at least, that which I understood when reading the WotC prose).


RC

 

[P1NBACK]

They are not within the context of the refined meaning Fifth Element posted above (which is superior to that used by WotC, or at least, that which I understood when reading the WotC prose).

I don't believe this is any "refined" meaning. Most of us here have been using "Say Yes" to mean, "Yes, but...", "Yes, and..." or "Yes, yes, yes!"

 

[Raven Crowking]

I don't believe this is any "refined" meaning. Most of us here have been using "Say Yes" to mean, "Yes, but...", "Yes, and..." or "Yes, yes, yes!"

1. "Refined meaning" is a poor phrase; I mean "refined definition of the term". I.e., "a way of putting the term that more accurately reflects what has been meant all along by the party(ies) offering the refinemed definition".

2. However, that is not the meaning I get from the WotC "say Yes" bits I've read, at all.

3. However, that might be because (A) Fifth Element is a superior writer to the WotC staffers, or (B) I am an inferior reader. Or it might be because that isn't what WotC meant, because WotC has a fiscal incentive to "say Yes" meaning "Say the players can use whatever resources they purchase" (among other potential meanings).


RC

 

[P1NBACK]

Right on.

 

[KarinsDad]

Um. No.

Neither of these examples are saying, "No."

Within the context of the DMG page 28 and 29 where the terminology "Saying Yes" originated, the second example is saying No.

The DM is not allowing there to be a Magic Shop in that town which according to the DMG is a campaign loss and "cutting off possibilities".

It is my contention that doing this is often OK.

It's not required that the DM allow his players to often or even sometimes dictate what elements of the campaign world exist and where they exist.

It's the DM's world. He decides what is there or not.

The concept of empowering the players to the point that "Saying Yes" to many of their ideas with regard to what exists in the campaign world is not preferable in many cases.

The concept of having the DMG tell a DM that doing this is wrong is worse. Having it as a suggestion is fine. But the way "Saying Yes" is worded implies that "Saying No" is badwrongfun and frustrating to players. That's what I am disagreeing with and discussing.

Not the semantics that the DM allowed the PC to go look for a Magic Shop that didn't exist. The DM still said "Nope. No magic shop.". He still said No and that's sometimes a good thing.

 

[P1NBACK]

Again, no.

Re-read the advice. It specifically says:

"That wasn’t a possibility you’d anticipated, and you don’t have anything prepared for it. Many DMs, at this point, would say, 'No, there’s no
wizards’ guild here.'”

The advice is specifically for improv and on the fly judgment calls, not for prepared campaign material (like, there not being Ye Old Shoppe of Magic in your campaign world).

If you've already decided that such a place does not exist, then adhering to your prep is absolutely the right thing to do.