How do I deal with a rule lawyer?

[The Thayan Menace]

Embrace the Darkness!

What to do with that kind of guy?

Pistol-whip him into submission with the DMG and film it for YouTube.

-Samir

 

[Azrael Nightstar]

Just a quick note: nowhere in any D&D book I have ever seen, does it state this. Indeed, the attitude that the DM is always right has been the death of more than one otherwise perfectly good game group.

If I remember correctly this is actually very close to how the 2nd edition AD&D books put it. I think your GM could learn something from it, notjer, no matter how good a GM he is. My primary suggestion goes along with the majority "have the GM talk to the guy" thing, but specifically I'd advise to GM to say something along the lines of, "Look, it's my game, I run it how I want to, how I think it will work best and be the most fun, I change rules, dice, and situations at will, and what I say goes. You're welcome to help me out with rules I misunderstand, but if I've intentionally changed that rule, that's that." That's my policy, and it works very well (I'm as upfront and consistent as I can be, but ultimately I'm running the game, I'm responsible for it being fun, so what I say goes.)

Once this guy knows that the GM is going to do things his way, he can either take it or leave it. It should be made clear that doing things like peeking behind the GM screen isn't acceptable and won't be tolerated anymore.

Basically, the GM needs to talk to him, and not only explain the problem, but also set some very definite policies for this stuff, and then stick to them. Your GM also should at least ask about and listen to "Butosei's" concerns. There may be something to them; no one is so good a GM that they can't improve in little ways or learn something new. Then you and the GM should address some of your "you're being an ass" concerns; let "Butosei" know what he's doing that you don't like, why, what effects it's having, suggestions on what to do instead, etc. Emphasize that this is to make the game more fun for everyone. Try to get across the point that D&D is a cooperative, not a competitive, game. "Butosei" shouldn't be trying to "beat" the other PCs or even NPC friends, all the characters should be working together toward common ends, and what's good for your friend is good for the party is good for you.

Once this has been done, look for a change. This guy certainly is acting like an ass, but sometimes people do this because they're unhappy, don't realize they're ruining things for others, etc. Hopefully, being honest and open with him will get him to change and be a better player. If not, THEN you need to part ways, politely and without pointing fingers. This, too, is the GM's responsibility.

Bottom line: Have your GM talk to the guy, talk to him yourself, try to address any legitimate issues he has, see if you can get him to change for the common good. If it doesn't work, get rid of him, but be gentle about it so it doesn't ruin your friendship.

 

[Marshal Lucky]

If you play by the rules, rules lawyers aren't going to be a problem, now are they? When I first started DMing a long time ago, I used to cheat because I couldn't bring myself to let the dice land where they may if it meant killing off a friend's PC. But then I remembered it's a game, and cheating (even to keep someone in the game) is WRONG. If you wouldn't hold back playing chess or cards or Monopoly, why go easy in D&D? So stick to the rules and let 'em suffer.

By the way, if this rules lawyer is wrong in his assertions, be sure to make him cite page, paragraph and line for every rule he claims you have done wrong. In other words, make him back up his claims in detail. That way the other players can ridicule him for being stupid.

 

[jdrakeh]

If you play by the rules, rules lawyers aren't going to be a problem, now are they? When I first started DMing a long time ago, I used to cheat because I couldn't bring myself to let the dice land where they may if it meant killing off a friend's PC. But then I remembered it's a game, and cheating (even to keep someone in the game) is WRONG. If you wouldn't hold back playing chess or cards or Monopoly, why go easy in D&D? So stick to the rules and let 'em suffer.

By the way, if this rules lawyer is wrong in his assertions, be sure to make him cite page, paragraph and line for every rule he claims you have done wrong. In other words, make him back up his claims in detail. That way the other players can ridicule him for being stupid.

I suspect that the problem player's views are similar to yours in that there is a "wrong" and "right" way to play the game and, that if they (the OP's group) aren't playing the game the way that he (the problem player) thinks it should be played, then they're WRONG (to quote you). No offense, but that absolutist, judgemental, mentality is exactly what the OP seems to be complaining about. The problem player is obviously not having fun and, by constantly accusing the DM of cheating and the other players of being WRONG, he's ruining the game for them.

The problem player in this situation needs to find a different group to play with -- a group of like-minded players who won't see his constant complaining and accusations as problematic, but as some kind of welcome intellectual debate. This solution gives the problem player what he wants (i.e., players who slavishly adhere to the RAW simply for the sake of doing so) and the OP's group what they want (freedom to have fun as they see fit without somebody judging their personal tastes).

[Note: Deviating from the rules in D&D is not, according to every edition of said rules, cheating -- that has been very specifically covered in every edition of the game from AD&D onward.]

 

[Marshal Lucky]

I suspect that the problem player's views are similar to yours in that there is a "wrong" and "right" way to play the game and, that if they (the OP's group) aren't playing the game the way that he (the problem player) thinks it should be played, then they're WRONG (to quote you). No offense, but that absolutist, judgemental, mentality is exactly what the OP seems to be complaining about. The problem player is obviously not having fun and, by constantly accusing the DM of cheating and the other players of being WRONG, he's ruining the game for them.

The problem player in this situation needs to find a different group to play with -- a group of like-minded players who won't see his constant complaining and accusations as problematic, but as some kind of welcome intellectual debate. This solution gives the problem player what he wants (i.e., players who slavishly adhere to the RAW simply for the sake of doing so) and the OP's group what they want (freedom to have fun as they see fit without somebody judging their personal tastes).

[Note: Deviating from the rules in D&D is not, according to every edition of said rules, cheating -- that has been very specifically covered in every edition of the game from AD&D onward.]

I'm talking about DMs who pull things out of you-know-where, not the ones who are upfront about changing things.

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm talking about DMs who pull things out of you-know-where, not the ones who are upfront about changing things.

Well, your post seemed to imply that deviating from dice results in any fashion was cheating and that cheating is WRONG. I'm not going to say that this is either correct or incorrect for everybody (I don't get to choose what everybody sees as wrong or right). That said. . .

In this particular instance, the OP's entire play group, with the exception of the problem player, has no issue with the DM fudging die roll results when it makes sense to do so in the context of ensuring a continuing campaign. Therefore, I feel confident in saying. . .

For this group, the GM fudging dice to ensure that the game doesn't suddenly come to a grinding halt is not WRONG. It is only perceived as WRONG by the problem player. And as I mention far earlier in this thread, that is very unlikely to change.

The best solution here is for the one guy who wants to play the game in a different way than that prefered by everybody else to find another group, and for the current group to insist that he do so.

 

[Li Shenron]

Personally I don't mind having a Rules Lawyer in my group. I don't have the time or desire to sit down and memorize every rule from the PHB, DMG, or from any number of splatbooks. It works best when if I am fuzzy on a rule I can turn to the RL and ask them what the rule is on a particular subject and they save me from having to stop the game to look up the rule. It especially helps when I have other players who will blurt out that they want their character to do something but haven't taken it upon themselves to look up the rule even though they may have been sitting there 5 to 10 minutes waiting for me to come around to them. If I am DMing I am responsible for the actions of the NPCs... the least the players could do would be to learn the rules that pertain to their characters. I don't know how many times I've heard a player tell me that they want to Bull Rush or Grapple an enemy and then sit there dumbfounded when I ask them to make their roll or they immediately reply "What do I roll for that?". You are the one wanting to do said action... you look up the rule!

Sorry if I got off on a rant.

That is not a rules lawyer, that is just someone who is an expert of the rules.

A rules expert is someone who remembers most of the rules well and is familiar with rules problems. For example, the rules expert knows that "using Cleave during AoO" is a subject of discussion, and knows what are the two schools on thought. A very good rules expert knows what will be the good/bad consequences for the DM to choose either way.

A rules LAWYER is like a lawyer: someone who wants to IMPOSE his favourite rule interpretation on the rest of the group, and will go on forever trying every argument to show that he's right. That's why he's called "lawyer", because he will try to out-smart the others or force thoughts that don't even belong to the game (like discussing down to the exact punctuation of a sentence if necessary) just to save his "client" - his pet rule interpretation of the day. Like a lawyer in court, he can do everything if necessary to prove that his murderous client is innocent, including lying and strategically ignoring evidence to the contrary of his opinion.

There is a huge difference between knowing the rules, and being a rules lawyer...

 

[delericho]

If you play by the rules, rules lawyers aren't going to be a problem, now are they?

If only that were true. The (bad form of) rule-lawyer can be motivated by several things:

1) Perhaps he just doesn't like the game, and is rule-lawyering as a passive-aggressive protest.

2) Perhaps he just wants to 'win', at any cost.

3) Perhaps he's had one too many experiences with a bad DM who constantly screwed players over with twisted and altered rules.

4) Perhaps he just wants the attention.

5) Or perhaps he just genuinely prefers a game with stronger adherence to the rules, as it will be much more comfortable for him.

In all but the last case (and maybe #3), switching to a strict rules adherence isn't going to solve the problem - he'll just act up in a different manner.

There are ways to deal with (almost) all of these motivations... but they all tend to boil down to "talk to the guy", and eventually, if he doesn't shape up, "kick him out."

 

[werk]

After reading the whole thread up til now (good stuff in there) I'd say kick him out.

He really is just wanting to cause trouble, and if no one else appreciates that, he should go. It'd be different if he were more reasonable or understanding or if everyone enjoyed his antics.

My advice for getting rid of him would be to maim or otherwise un-bad-ass his character and make him reliant on the other player characters that he has been such a jerk to for so long to care for, protect, and hide him from the bounty hunters sure to be hot on his now vulnerable heels. It sounds like you all have a lot of role play going on, so this may be a good way to shift gears a bit.

As for the DM that fudges, I don't care for that either. If it is established beforehand, there isn't much a player can do or say about it. If it is not established beforehand, then he is right to bring it up, but wrong to demand anything of the DM. It just seems like there is bad communication and, as you've said, a troublemaking 'griefer' player.

 

[NilesB]

Let me ask some questions here.

You mentioned the DM fudging die rolls blatantly in order to keep a PC alive, and elsewhere you mentioned PC fatalities. Is the DM fudging in favor of certain players? If not, could it look that way to the player about which you are complaining?

You mentioned a case in which this player got into a disagreement with the DM over a decision made by an NPC in the party made on the behalf of the whole party. Do NPC party members often make decisions on behalf of the whole party? Are these NPC party members always or nearly always present while the group is adventuring? How effective are these NPCs in comparison to the PCs? How much does the game's plot focus around them and how much does it focus around the PCs?

Your group has given this player's character an unflattering nickname. Who came up with this nickname? Does the DM encourage or discourage the use of this nickname? does The DM or the party NPCs use this nickname themselves?