D&D 5E How do you handle someone who is not surprised but is unaware of any threats?

[Fenris-77]

I agree that the turn based system does not do combat well in D&D over the editions. A lot of movie magic or real world aspects cannot be handled right. Nobody surrenders when a crossbow is leveled on them, they just draw their sword and attack. Even if they loose initiative or you give surprise, they know the PC is only taking a minor damage.

I tend to give more breaks to the PCs and the players by default. Taking the feat to be cool at something means that they are not as effective at something else and I should not look for ways to penalize that.

I don't really have a huge problem with turn based combat, in D&D anyway, but the transition to it from what might be best described as 'free play' sometimes gets a little sticky, as it does in this thread. In general I do prefer a non-turn based approach, but when I'm playing D&D I'm ok with it. I also tend to use something like a morale system to help with those times when surrender should really be an option. I don't want to decide that by fiat every time.

 

[Oofta]

I agree that the turn based system does not do combat well in D&D over the editions. A lot of movie magic or real world aspects cannot be handled right. Nobody surrenders when a crossbow is leveled on them, they just draw their sword and attack. Even if they loose initiative or you give surprise, they know the PC is only taking a minor damage.
...

You know, that does explain something my wife and I complain about all the time about certain TV shows. The good guy has a gun readied and leveled at the bad guy, the bad guy pulls his gun and starts blasting away while diving for cover. We both sit there and just shake our heads - why didn't the hero just shoot when the bad guy went for their gun? WTF?

But now it makes sense. All the bad guys have a really high initiative modifier and know they'll have a turn first. Thanks for clarifying that for us!

 

[aco175]

But now it makes sense. All the bad guys have a really high initiative modifier and know they'll have a turn first. Thanks for clarifying that for us!

Should have taken the alertness feat instead of bumping charisma.

 

[jgsugden]

I agree that the turn based system does not do combat well in D&D over the editions. A lot of movie magic or real world aspects cannot be handled right. Nobody surrenders when a crossbow is leveled on them, they just draw their sword and attack. Even if they loose initiative or you give surprise, they know the PC is only taking a minor damage...

This is handled by role playing and remembering that the heroes are the heroes of the story, not just background characters. The other characters do not know they have that heroic plot armor.

The 5th level PCs are in an alley, facing off with some thugs that have crossbows leveled at them. The DM has ruled that there are readied attacks if the PCs move. The PCs leap into action, bolts fly, a few PCs are hit, but battle ensues.

What were the thugs thinking? "These guys are stupid. We got the drop on them. We can attack them if we they do anything. I've killed dozens with my crossbow... a fancy cloak and a shiny sword ain't gonna save this idiot." They don't know they're dealing with people protected by lucky, the will of the Gods or whatever else gives them hit points. They may have heard tales of (or even seen) heroes escape something like this before - but they do not believe that they're facing off against someone that will get that lucky.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is not 3e. As we see in this case, sometimes you have to look behind the RAW to see the intent.



It is not possible for it to have its stated function without it giving additional information.

Yep, IMO the best way to handle alert is to let the character know there are enemies about to strike and where they are. Provide appropriate narration to make that happen.

Alert doesn't have to be played as spidey sense and I bet it will play alot better if it isn't used that way.

 

[iserith]

On the specific example, since they were exploring a forest, I would have described the situation as the chorus of birds and insects that were previously singing suddenly going quiet as the spiders and ettercap approached unseen and unheard.

Smell may also be a useful thing to describe in some situations.

 

[FrogReaver]

I for one am not really sure the point of alert if combat starts and you have to waste your turn doing next to nothing. Might as well have been surprised in that case.

 

[clearstream]

This is not 3e. As we see in this case, sometimes you have to look behind the RAW to see the intent.

The intent is accurately defined in the RAW, for Alert.

It is not possible for it to have its stated function without it giving additional information.

I do not follow your thinking here. Are you saying that a character with Alert can be surprised any time that they are not aware of the source of that (potential) surprise? Where is that written?

 

[Umbran]

Yep, IMO the best way to handle alert is to let the character know there are enemies about to strike and where they are. Provide appropriate narration to make that happen.

Especially when you remember that you san say that generally, without breaking the enemy out of their hiding - "over behind the bushes to the north". They can still get their advantage when they attack from hiding, can't be directly targeted by spells, still have the advantage/disadvantage from hiding, and all that.

The point at hand is that a feat is a pretty significant thing, and having it be, "you get to take an action, but usually it cannot be a meaningful action," is devaluing the feat a great deal.

 

[Xetheral]

I for one am not really sure the point of alert if combat starts and you have to waste your turn doing next to nothing. Might as well have been surprised in that case.

I tend to agree. I also think that going second with full information on the threat is usually better than going first with only "spider sense" or other incomplete information.

That's why I houserule to let the lead ambusher (not necessarily the leader, but whomever in the ambushing party has the responsibility to decide when to spring the ambush) go first, and the rest of the initiative order is filled in normally after that. This houserule is generally advantageous for high-initiative defenders with Alert, preserves the ambushers' successful stealth check until broken by the resolution of an attack or spell, and avoids causality problems that can occur if the ambushers opt (or are forced) to do something different on their turn than the action declaration that triggered initiative.

Do note that I adopted my houserule at a table where the PCs do most of ambushing. At a table where NPCs are usually the ambushers, there may be less value in preserving the ability of the ambushers to revise their pre-initiative action declarations when their turn comes up.