D&D 5E How does surprise work?

brehobit

Explorer
I feel like there was a thread on this earlier, but I can't find it.

A few questions
  1. The rules for suprise are odd in that it sounds like if there exists even one person you don't notice, you can't act in the suprise round. Am I reading that right? Seems dumb (have one party member that hides well and always get surprise for the whole group?)
  2. When are you no longer surprised? It matters for things like assassinate.
  3. Do you get advantage when you have someone suprised or unaware? I'd think so, but I can't find the rule. Help?

Thanks,
 

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Man, so many people get this wrong (especially by defaulting to earlier e rules). I tend to think they're OK, but they come across as better in play than in words on a page.

The meat of the scenario is this: Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

That means noticing one threat is enough to inocculate you against any surprise.

Example scenario:

The PC's are on a boat and 4 water elementals are coming up to them. The party consists of a ranger who is moving along shore next to the boat, sneaking through the underbrush. Water elementals are "stealthed" because they can't be seen against the water, as is the ranger. DM rolls 4 Stealth checks, one per water elemental, and compares them to the party's Passive Perception scores. They also ask the ranger to roll a Stealth check and compare it to the elemental's perception. DM determines that since the water elementals are trying for an ambush, they're the ones trying to gain surprise, but the ranger can't gain surprise since the elemenals notice "a" threat (namely, the entire rest of the party). This would be why moving off on your own as a stealthy character is a Good Idea.

Lets say the party has passive perception of 9 (foolish wizard), 10 (jack-of-all-stats bard), 13 (veteran warrior), and 15 (keen-eyed ranger). The ranger's stealth comes up 16.

The DM's stealth checks come up, lets say, 11 (elemental A), 12 (elemental B), 14 (elemental C) and 18 (elemental D). They've all got passive perception of 13.

Everyone rolls initiative:

Elemental D - 19
Keen-Eyed Ranger - 17
Foolish Wizard - 13
Elemental B - 11
Veteran Warrior - 8
Elemental C - 5
Jack of All Stats Bard - 4
Elemental A - 3

Turn proceeds like this:
  • Elemental D is first. It is not surprised - it sees the party and notes them as a threat. It is hidden, though this doesn't give it any inherent advantages aside from not really being a target. It doesn't see the ranger, and the ranger doesn't see it. It readies an action to attack once someone comes within reach.
  • Keen-Eyed Ranger is next, and she sees three elementals. The ranger is not surprised - she sees a threat. She gets to act normally, but she doesn't notice (and so can't target) Elemental D. Since Elemental D also didn't notice the ranger, that elemental isn't going to get their readied action when the ranger passes by them - they don't notice the ranger. The ranger attacks some other elemental, and at that point, they are revealed - elemental D wonders where they came from so suddenly!
  • Elemental B's turn. Elemental B is hidden from the bard, and the wizard, but not the ranger or the warrior (not that the elemental would necessarily know that). It attacks the wizard and hits - BARELY. The wizard player perks up - "Oh! Shield!". Unfortunately, the wizard player didn't notice ANY of the elementals - they are surprised and cannot take reactions...yet.
  • Wizard's turn. Well, they're surprised - they saw no elementals - so no actions, but now at least they can use shield!
  • Elemental C's turn. It is hidden from the wizard, the bard, and the warrior. It goes for the warrior who happens to be a battle master who knows parry. If the warrior was surprised, they couldn't use Parry, but lo, the warrior noticed two of the elementals, and so is not surprised. PARRY. Elemental C was hidden from the warrior but, again, that doesn't confer any particular inherent advantage aside from not being targeted. Elemental C is not hidden anymore.
  • Warrior's turn. It saw two elementals, and now a third one that just walloped it. It goes for that one, but as it adjusts its stance it passes within range of Elemental D, and gets walloped as that elemental uses its reaction.
  • Elemental A's turn. It is still hidden from the wizard and the bard...and attacks the bard! The bard failed to see even one threat, so they're surprised, too. Not that it does much in this case - the bard doesn't have a reaction beyond an OA, and the elemental doesn't provoke.
  • Bard's turn. It stops being surprised.
  • Elemental D's turn again.

In that whole scenario, only two characters were surprised.

Some big things:
- If you notice ANY one creature, you are not surprised. So one with stealth won't achieve surprise for the entire group unless they are alone.

- Surprise ends after your first turn - you still roll initiative and have turns normally when surprised, you just can't take any actions (including reactions) until you are not surprised anymore.

- Only individual class/monster features give you advantages when attacking a surprised creature. Otherwise, your main advantage is that they can't take OA's, letting you hit-and-run.
 

That was really helpful. A few questions.
  1. Why couldn't D wack the ranger as he went by? I'd say he's no longer hidden as soon as he moves out from cover and so D could react to him. Yours is a reasonable ruling, but I'm not seeing it as a RAW ruling. Given how much better than I you seem to understand this, I'm guessing I'm missing something.
  2. If the ranger were to have shot from her hidden position rather than moving, she would get advantage on the attack for being hidden from that target, correct?

And yeah, the big issue--do you need to notice all threats or just one, is made complex by the wording. It is reasonable read the text both ways. I'd claim it's quite ambiguous...

Thanks!
 

]Why couldn't D wack the ranger as he went by? I'd say he's no longer hidden as soon as he moves out from cover and so D could react to him. Yours is a reasonable ruling, but I'm not seeing it as a RAW ruling. Given how much better than I you seem to understand this, I'm guessing I'm missing something.

The shortest answer to this is Stealth Rules Are Incomprehensible. ;) There's a lot of DM judgement calls that go into exactly when stealth breaks and what a character might be able to do while stealthed. I try to err in favor of it being at least somewhat useful most of the time, but ruling that any movement breaks stealth is also reasonable.

If the ranger were to have shot from her hidden position rather than moving, she would get advantage on the attack for being hidden from that target, correct?

The most relevant bit is pg. 194-195 of the PHB, which I actually forgot to apply in my example above: when a creature can't see you (ie, when you have successfully Stealth'd it), you have advantage on attack rolls against it (which also means sneak attack for any rogues!)

So our ranger, if they don't come out of stealth before, gets advantage on their first attack roll against any of the water elementals. Sniping would be reasonable there.
 

So our ranger, if they don't come out of stealth before, gets advantage on their first attack roll against any of the water elementals. Sniping would be reasonable there.
It does raise the question of how the ranger is hiding, though. The elementals get a free pass since they just look like their background, but the ranger can't hide unless they have something to hide behind. Unless that something only provides cover in one direction, they would need to break out from cover before making the attack, thus becoming no longer hidden before the attack is made.

That's the part which is really subject to DM discretion, though. None of the elementals are surprised, because they see a threat, which instantly puts them into combat alertness 360-degree vision mode that prevents you from hiding unless you're behind cover, and which instantly reveals you to them as soon as you give up that cover. Unless the DM makes a judgment that the elementals aren't in combat alertness 360-degree vision mode, for whatever reason.
 

It does raise the question of how the ranger is hiding, though. The elementals get a free pass since they just look like their background, but the ranger can't hide unless they have something to hide behind. Unless that something only provides cover in one direction, they would need to break out from cover before making the attack, thus becoming no longer hidden before the attack is made.

That's the part which is really subject to DM discretion, though. None of the elementals are surprised, because they see a threat, which instantly puts them into combat alertness 360-degree vision mode that prevents you from hiding unless you're behind cover, and which instantly reveals you to them as soon as you give up that cover. Unless the DM makes a judgment that the elementals aren't in combat alertness 360-degree vision mode, for whatever reason.

Yeah, Stealth Rules Are Incomprehensible. The DM is ultimately the judge of when you can do it and when you can't (maybe there's underbrush that is handwaved away!)

The elementals in the example don't automatically detect the ranger, they just can't be surprised by the ranger, since they're ready for fightin'. The ranger gets a shot at advantage against any of 'em. Likewise, the warrior doesn't automatically see all the elementals just because they're not surprised - you can be aware of fighting in general but unsure of the exact locations or types of all the attackers. You see one, you get ready for all of 'em.
 

When one entire side is trying to hide from the other, make a group check (PHB p. 175). All or nothing, hidden or not. Easy peasy - as far as determining surprise, anyway :-)

All the rest of the nonsense still exists, though...
 


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