How Dragonbane Pointed out the Clashing Desires of My Gaming Group

[payn]

I was thinking the same thing when I read the final list of group wants.

Im guessing the tactical team work bit might get to be a bit too much for them. Though, if you stick to at level (moderate) or lower challenge and avoid severe/extreme, PF2 will play a bit more like 5E level. YMMV.

Leveling seems complex, but PF2 really simplified it down to a few tables. The first level is a beast, but its a breeze after that. I think the real challenge is the GM here might find it boring to go half gas on the players in a campaign.

 

[Cruentus]

Sorry to hear about the disconnect. All the things they listed as things they didn’t like are things I keep looking for in a game. I recently pretty much stopped RPGing with my 40+ year group (again) because our likes in RPGs diverged to the point where I wasn’t having fun running, and they didn’t care for the type of game I was running.

So I keep looking to find an online group that is playing the kind of game I would like. I’ve pretty much moved to OSE/Dolmenwood and Beyond the Wall, where all those fiddly details and exploration and intrigue and combat can all be parts of the game, and they feel like actual accomplishment to me.

Good luck.

 

[Wolfram stout]

As much as its derided as the bane of all RPG existence online, among players its not uncommon.

They want advanced Heroquest or something between board game and RPG which is also pretty common.

Warhammer is pretty intimidating, but would be a good fit.

I immediately thought of Heroquest as well as a fit for his group.

But, no board games, so what seems that would be a good fit (Except for the poor guy that actually wants to Role-Play) is a boardgame disguised as an RPG, but not so complicated as 3rd or 4th edition D&D, but still somewhat tactically deep.

I can only get my group together a couple of times a year and they are all "fine" with what I want to run and the sessions are always "that was fun" but with no enthusiasum.

So, I feel the pain, just in an almost exact opposite type of way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But, you know, they didn't seem to like a lot of that, either. Maybe if it was more like the Lair Assault program? Just have an exciting fight and then come back next week for another encounter.
Like, they wouldn't interact with roleplaying in 4e. Or rituals. Or making magic item wishlists. Or skill challenges. Or really play well tactically. So most of the best parts of 4E were lost on them anyway.

I ran a bunch of random arena fights with 4e after we all decided we hated it for a campaign. Best use of 4e I ever made.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's the old issue of when people describe buzzwords or what they think you want to hear.

• "Deep, tactical play."
• "Extravagant character customization."
• "Mysterious political machinations."
• "Rich tapestry of world building."
• "Moving roleplaying experiences."

Yet, their characters are named like "Farty McButtface" and spend their time trying to nail the wenches.

The only one who is honest with me is my wife.
Here are some quotes. "Basically, I just want to be powerful and kick ass. I want to roll 41 points of damage. I don't want to talk to the NPCs or follow a story. I want to be a rogue and sneak attack for lots of damage. I don't want to guess where to search for a trap - I want to make a check and have that determined. All the other stuff between the fights is just fluff that takes away our time that we could be having fun."

How do they feel about you all just forming a World of Warcraft guild?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's the old issue of when people describe buzzwords or what they think you want to hear.

• "Deep, tactical play."
• "Extravagant character customization."
• "Mysterious political machinations."
• "Rich tapestry of world building."
• "Moving roleplaying experiences."

Yet, their characters are named like "Farty McButtface" and spend their time trying to nail the wenches.

The only one who is honest with me is my wife.
Here are some quotes. "Basically, I just want to be powerful and kick ass. I want to roll 41 points of damage. I don't want to talk to the NPCs or follow a story. I want to be a rogue and sneak attack for lots of damage. I don't want to guess where to search for a trap - I want to make a check and have that determined. All the other stuff between the fights is just fluff that takes away our time that we could be having fun."

I would absolutely hate a game with those requirements, either playing or running. I don't envy you.

 

[thullgrim]

There’s nothing wrong with scripted adventures. I know the internet hates them but apparently they are popular enough that the industry continues to produce them. See Paizos adventure paths for the first example.

You can have a scripted adventure and still have agency. The agency comes from making decisions within the constraints of the established social contract. The group makes a social contract decision. This is the game we are playing. We make this decisions with open eyes, knowing that there are plot beats you’ll have to hit. And then spoon feed them the story. Get your RPG on through narration, playing NPCs, and revealing the plot to them.

Its fine for players to want their characters to know how to do a thing. I can’t roleplay an 18 strength why should I have to roleplay trying to find a trap. My rogue character is a subject matter expert here. He knows where it’s likely to be. He rolls perception to find it. If successful he’s smarter than the trap setter. If he fails he eats the trap.

People get really wound up about challenging players but why should it be adversarial like that. I play an imaginary elf man who knows things I don’t. Challenging my elf man means he rolls his skill to find the trap. Move on.

Know and accept yourself and your group. Manage both sets of expectations. If I was going to continue to play with them I’d pick pick PF1 or PF2. I’d grab 3-5 adventure paths I was interested in and then let them pick the story.

- I know I’d do this because I just went through this process with my own group. When my short GURPS campaign wraps we’ll be doing PF1 and Curse of the Crimson Throne. It’s taken me a couple years to realize my group doesn’t have the same depth of game that I do but I like playing with them. This is the happy medium I settled on. I get some story. They get to feel like bad asses.

Edited because phone and I have fat thumbs…

 

[KYRON45]

This thread makes it clear that we all play the game VERY differently.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Maybe a tactical skirmish game could do the trick, like Fallout Wasteland or Mutant:Year Zero Zone War, or even the old 4e skirmish game.

No full on war gaming, but action packed adventures for you bloodthirsty wife.

 

[Gorgon Zee]

Yes. I have run a couple campaigns of 13th Age for other groups in the past, and it was on my short list (along with Dragonbane). The reason I didn't pick it this time is its similarity to 4E structurally, which I thought would be confusing having just finished that campaign recently.

That's the sort of game design that really killed the 4E experience.
Let's print out a notebook describing all your multitudes of powers, which are all augmented every level and change based on your magic items (which get awarded every level), and you have to look through your printed notebook to decide what you're going to do each time your turn comes up.
I just wanted a change from that style of play.

So you are looking for a tactical system in which players can feel great and powerful, but:

• Powers do not change when you level up
• Items do not affect powers
• You have very few options when your turn comes up

I think it is going to be really hard to provide the tactical fun your players are looking for, while restricting options and not wanting much character improvement. One possibility is to pick a pretty complex system and then don't level the characters. So, maybe, pick 4E but fix the player levels at 13 (it's a nice sweet spot) and make getting new magic items be the way characters improve. Would that work, or do your players really like getting more powerful over time?