D&D 5E How is Artificer Balanced?

[NotAYakk]

The spell disintegrate says it doesn't affect magic items. The cannon is described as a magic object. If they wanted it to be an item, they would have used the word, not left it unsaid.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Correct, no dispute here. If the canon is an object...you quoted that above....go ahead Boba Fett.
If the canon is a Magical Object or Magic Item...no disintegration, Boba Fett.

If the DM rules the Arcane Canon is instead something other than an object or a creature, but a bit of both...Saving Throw at +0 is allowed.

Prior to Eberron, magical items were the only magical objects, outside the occasional enchanted component of a trap.

 

[NotAYakk]

No, the disintegrate spell rules out magic items as being destroyed. It does not rule out magic objects.

So disintegrate works on the cannon automatically, just like spells targeting creatures don't work on it.

Of course, you could appeal to the DM being reasonable. But then you'll find that anti-creature spells will usually work on the cannon, and disintegrate won't auto-destroy it.

Much as if they wanted it to be creature they would have said creature, if they wanted it to be an item they'd have said item.

Goose, meet gander.

Treating a magic object as a magic item is as much of a stretch as treating a walking object with HP, attributes, attacks and saving throws as a creature. Which is to say, this makes lots of sense.

However, if you want to play word games, you should live with the consequences.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Per the PHB, 10th printing...
DISINTEGRATE
6th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a lodestone and a pinch of dust) Duration: Instantaneous
A thin green ray springs from your pointing finger to a target that you can see within range. The target can be a creature, an object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by wall offorce.
A creature targeted by this spell must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes
10d6 + 40 force damage. The target is disintegrated if this damage leaves it with 0 hit points.
A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell.
This spell automatically disintegrates a Large or smaller nonmagical object or a creation of magical force. If the target is a Huge or larger object or creation of force, this spell disintegrates a 10-foot-cube portion of it. A magic item is unaffected by this spell.

In looking at the text, as a Magical Object...an Arcane Canon, is not automatically disintergrated.
Since most people, (docbadwolf excepted), are not ruling the Arcane Canon as a Magic Item, it is not immune to the spell.

The Arcane Canon getting a DEX Saving Throw at +0 should be the result, based off the text.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Absolutely. Objects automatically take damage from most AoE spells (unless the DM rules that they don't for plot reasons, as in wooden floors and the PC's clothes). Magical Objects get a saving throw versus Disintegrate.

NB the reason 5e Disintegrate does not effect Magic Items is two-fold. In earlier editions using Disintegrate was a major risk, since it could destroy all the loot the target was carrying. So "does not destroy phat loot" is a buff. The other is so they don't have to write "immune to disintegrate" on every The One Ring or other plot McGuffin the PC's might need to throw into the Cracks of Doom. Since the turret is neither phat loot nor a plot McGuffin there is no reason to treat it as a magic item and give it plot armour.

 

[Stoutstien]

Out of curiosity I've been going through the spells and noting how each would effect the Eldritch cannon and treating it as a magical object it is surprisingly tough to take out by spells. Outside of a short list that call out that they can target and damage objects, almost all being fire spells like burning hands, fireball, and fire storm, combined with blanket condition immunity.
depending on how a DM rules they could also be immune to CC effects from spells that call out to solely effect creatures like plant growth or spirit guardian. On the other hand the Eldritch cannon cannot be targeted by buffs or healing spells at all.

definitely something to keep an eye on.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Out of curiosity I've been going through the spells and noting how each would effect the Eldritch cannon and treating it as a magical object it is surprisingly tough to take out by spells. Outside of a short list that call out that they can target and damage objects, almost all being fire spells like burning hands, fireball, and fire storm, combined with blanket condition immunity.

That's a misreading. None of those spells say "does not affect objects". They just don't specify, leaving it up to the DM to describe what happens when you let off a fireball in the king's luxuriously furnished bedchamber.

 

[Stoutstien]

That's a misreading. None of those spells say "does not affect objects". They just don't specify, leaving it up to the DM to describe what happens when you let off a fireball in the king's luxuriously furnished bedchamber.

I mean I did explicitly call out fireball as being one of the exceptions compared to something like spiritual weapons which is unable to Target the cannon at all the same way you can't use the spell to bash down a door. Then you have shatter which you would assume would be a good pick vs the cannon but it has clear text stating that it only effects non magical objects. Further down the list melfs acid arrow and chain lighting with different but clear text to allow targeting the cannon.
a dm is free to change how spells and the game world interacts but it just another player/DM discussion keep in mind of someone is planning on playing an artillerist.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

... effects from spells that call out to solely effect creatures like plant growth or spirit guardian. On the other hand the Eldritch cannon cannot be targeted by buffs or healing spells at all.

definitely something to keep an eye on.

Mending heals it. But that's out of combat.

 

[Stoutstien]

Mending heals it. But that's out of combat.

Very true but spells like healing word have no effect. I think a player would have pretty good grounds to call foul if a DM rules that the cannon can be targeted as a creature for hostile spells but are not allowed to cast beneficial spells on them.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Then you have shatter which you would assume would be a good pick vs the cannon but it has clear text stating that it only effects non magical objects

Shatter states this:
A nonmagical object that isn't being worn or carried also takes the damage if it's in the spell's area.

So as a magical object, a DM can either rule the Eldritch Cannon is immune to the damage, or gets a Saving Throw at +0.

I, frankly would apply this rider of the Shatter spell as well to the cannon:
A creature made of inorganic material such as stone, crystal, or metal has disadvantage on this saving throw.

To me, it seems nonsensical to have a Nimblewright Construct be seriously threatened by a Shatter spell, but a steel wingless dragon shaped Eldritch Cannon, not even be affected.

The Eldritch Cannon has AC, HP, and a Saving Throw entry...which leads me to believe that the design intent was not that an Eldritch Cannon be a neutrino in the D&D material world.

XGE makes clear that a Shepherd Druid's Spirit Totem is indeed a neutrino in the D&D material world...via this line:
It counts as neither a creature nor an object, though it has the spectral appearance of the creature it represent

As an aside, nice to see you Stoutstien, haven't seen you post at ENWorld in awhile.

 

[Todd Roybark]

I think a player would have pretty good grounds to call foul if a DM rules that the cannon can be targeted as a creature for hostile spells but are not allowed to cast beneficial spells on them.

Can you buff or cast beneficial spells on an Apparatus of Kwalish or a Dancing Sword?

The fact that a Mending cantrip heals the Eldritch Cannon, 2d6 damage is a fairly significant aid as is.
Also the cannon is immune to status effects. I agree with Flamestrike, that a tiny sized cannon, that is held counts as an attended item. So the cannon is only really in danger when it is in "remote control" mode.

I won't automatically target a player's Familiar. If the player, however, is pulling a Game of Thrones, "Dracarys" with the Dragons Breath spell and the Familiar, it is logical that the Familiar becomes fair game.

Same for the Eldritch Cannon.
Protect your toys, if one does not want them broken, or spend the spell slot to recast it.

An Artillerist is quite fine doing damage, (and very good damage at that), through cantrips.
The Artificer is not a Rogue..e.g. an at will class with no expendable resources.

 

[Stoutstien]

Shatter states this:
A nonmagical object that isn't being worn or carried also takes the damage if it's in the spell's area.

So as a magical object, a DM can either rule the Eldritch Cannon is immune to the damage, or gets a Saving Throw at +0.

I, frankly would apply this rider of the Shatter spell as well to the cannon:
A creature made of inorganic material such as stone, crystal, or metal has disadvantage on this saving throw.

To me, it seems nonsensical to have a Nimblewright Construct be seriously threatened by a Shatter spell, but a steel wingless dragon shaped Eldritch Cannon, not even be affected.

The Eldritch Cannon has AC, HP, and a Saving Throw entry...which leads me to believe that the design intent was not that an Eldritch Cannon be a neutrino in the D&D material world.

XGE makes clear that a Shepherd Druid's Spirit Totem is indeed a neutrino in the D&D material world...via this line:
It counts as neither a creature nor an object, though it has the spectral appearance of the creature it represent

As an aside, nice to see you Stoutstien, haven't seen you post at ENWorld in awhile.

Aye. Been working in a fairly rural area last few months with no access to the web.

I agree that the wording in ERLW leaves unnecessarily foot work for DMs to keep the in game logic constant. so far I've been allowing damage spells and effects to target the EC but let them freely place them on person other than in hand to free up options and allow them to toss the EC up to 30 feet away as part of the same action to create them.

So far the 2 artillerist I have on tables have keep the EB on person so it hasn't been an issue but I personally get to play on (finally) in a game and I think I want to try to use it as a secondary Frontline object.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The Eldritch Cannon has AC, HP, and a Saving Throw entry

I think that's the point really. Most objects do not have AC or HP - it would be too much record keeping for every chair, table and teacup to have hp. Most objects are just scenery, and it's up to the DM to narrate how the scenery is affected by spells.

So the cannon is only really in danger when it is in "remote control" mode.

I would rule a held turret was subject to a Battlemaster disarm attack though.

 

[Seramus]

if you are using the turret as a worn object, can you get sneak attack with it if you are muti-classed? I'm thinking no because it isn't finesse or light...but it is a ranged weapon and bows allow for SA.

You can sneak attack with a ranged spell attack if you are using a ranged weapon to do it. But the turret is not a ranged weapon in the technical sense.

You might find a DM who lets you do it. They might even let the sneak attack be force damage, but I wouldn't personally.

 

[Todd Roybark]

in a game and I think I want to try to use it as a secondary Frontline object.

It can be, AC 18 is not bad at all in early tiers. My Fighter is more then willing to act as cover for the cannon, especially when it is in Protector mode.

As a DM I would allow an Artillerist to create a custom Infusion that would boost the AC and Saving Throw bonus for the Eldritch Cannon, if it proves to be too vulnerable.

I have not had the chance to be a DM for a game with an Artillerist. One balancing factor, I see, is that while Temp HP can keep you conscious while your regular HP are low, Temp HP do not help against the Power Word spells or spells like Sleep, Color Spray or Divine Word spells for example.

Temp HP can't do everything HP can, which causes my Fighter, much anxiety.

I've had the pleasure to DM for an Alchemist....solid subclass.

@Umbran, so how is the Battle Smith? (If you care to share).

On a surface read, the subclass seems versatile, being able to potentially switch from weapon attacks to targeting Saving Throws, as the situation warrants.

Thematically, the combo of Steel Defender and other subclass powers, plus base class would seem to do a grizzled veteran character well. I have a hard time, admittedly of thinking of other characters it would excel at representing.

My only quibble with the Artificer as a whole, is that it needs either 3 Cantrips to start with, or should gain a 3rd cantrip before 10th level.

 

[Stoutstien]

It can be, AC 18 is not bad at all in early tiers. My Fighter is more then willing to act as cover for the cannon, especially when it is in Protector mode.

As a DM I would allow an Artillerist to create a custom Infusion that would boost the AC and Saving Throw bonus for the Eldritch Cannon, if it proves to be too vulnerable.

I have not had the chance to be a DM for a game with an Artillerist. One balancing factor, I see, is that while Temp HP can keep you conscious while your regular HP are low, Temp HP do not help against the Power Word spells or spells like Sleep, Color Spray or Divine Word spells for example.

Temp HP can't do everything HP can, which causes my Fighter, much anxiety.

I've had the pleasure to DM for an Alchemist....solid subclass.

@Umbran, so how is the Battle Smith? (If you care to share).

On a surface read, the subclass seems versatile, being able to potentially switch from weapon attacks to targeting Saving Throws, as the situation warrants.

Thematically, the combo of Steel Defender and other subclass powers, plus base class would seem to do a grizzled veteran character well. I have a hard time, admittedly of thinking of other characters it would excel at representing.

My only quibble with the Artificer as a whole, is that it needs either 3 Cantrips to start with, or should gain a 3rd cantrip before 10th level.

The low level cantrip squeeze is real for the artificer. I'm tempted to give out mending for free at lv 1 to free up room for one utility or secondary damage option.