D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence

[Redwizard007]

You forgot that attacks don't always hit. If we assume 50% hit rate that's four attacks negated, and since CR 1/8 creatures don't get multiattack, that's four enemies neutralised every round. And that's at tier one. I've seen a god mode twilight cleric who makes the team invincible without lifting a finger offensively.

Why am I only assuming a 50% hit rate? That's boring for everyone involved. 65-75% is a lot more interesting. Twilight cleric should be effectively negating 1-2 hits per round at low level, 1/2 a hit at mid levels, and negligible at higher levels. It's just math. Sure, you can design encounters to make it look OP, but you can also design encounters to trivialize it.

 

[Mort]

Why am I only assuming a 50% hit rate? That's boring for everyone involved. 65-75% is a lot more interesting. Twilight cleric should be effectively negating 1-2 hits per round at low level, 1/2 a hit at mid levels, and negligible at higher levels. It's just math. Sure, you can design encounters to make it look OP, but you can also design encounters to trivialize it.

If you have to DESIGN encounters to trivialize it, then it's OP.

But more to the point, name another level 2 cleric ability this good? It's not just about OP or not ir's about even a semblence of balance.

heck the only aura that I think equals or exceeds it is the Peace clerics 6th level protective bond. But that's 6th level AND it requires the entire party work together really well, whereas the twilight aura is passive.

I played a twilight cleric from levels 1-4, the abilities are HEFTY. The twilight aura did make fights MUCH easier.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Why am I only assuming a 50% hit rate? That's boring for everyone involved. 65-75% is a lot more interesting

Side remark, but frankly not everyone. 60+% hit rate is BORING! Add in any buffs and jumping to 70-80% makes it so you might as well not bother rolling attacks and just roll damage.

So, yeah, not everyone. Our house-rules make hitting about 35-45%, which makes it both interesting and exciting when you hit--instead of mundane and boring.

Back to your regularly schedule thread topic...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

taking the edge off of a single hit

It's not a single hit though. It's a single hit per character per round for the whole of the combat. It's far more effective than any concertation spell I've ever seen a cleric cast.

I'm not one to worry about balance in my game particularly, but I have seen one of these played to level 17, and it's not a little overpowered. It is very very very overpowered.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Why am I only assuming a 50% hit rate?

Because that's realistic.

 

[Blue]

It's not a single hit though. It's a single hit per character per round for the whole of the combat. It's far more effective than any concertation spell I've ever seen a cleric cast.

That assumes everyone gets hit, which is more often than not not the case. I play a glamour bard, and I often find that 2-3 rounds later when I trigger my tHPs again that some characters still have my original tHPs.

I'm running for one right now, party is 8th. It's quite nice, as a class feature that takes a full action to activate should be, but the tanks are still taking significant damage per round and some characters never need to be topped off.

Were it's most useful seems to be against foes with area of effect.

I'm not one to worry about balance in my game particularly, but I have seen one of these played to level 17, and it's not a little overpowered. It is very very very overpowered.

I don't have experience at that level, I will defer to your experience in tiers 3 & 4.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That assumes everyone gets hit, which is more often than not not the case.

No, not everyone gets hit, but everyone gets defended. there are no weak targets that the hostiles can focus on.

And remember these temp hp don't go away if you don't take damage, so since 10 rounds is longer than most fights, everyone gets topped up for the start of the next fight.

 

[Seramus]

Side remark, but frankly not everyone. 60+% hit rate is BORING! Add in any buffs and jumping to 70-80% makes it so you might as well not bother rolling attacks and just roll damage.

So, yeah, not everyone. Our house-rules make hitting about 35-45%, which makes it both interesting and exciting when you hit--instead of mundane and boring.

Back to your regularly schedule thread topic...

For what it's worth, game design courses teach a standard of 65-75%. It's apparently the sweet spot in studies about chances of success in RPGs, and feeling rewarded vs challenged. So that's what a lot of game designers aim for as a default.

 

[ECMO3]

If you have to DESIGN encounters to trivialize it, then it's OP.

And if you have to DESIGN encounters to make it OP then it is not OP.

But more to the point, name another level 2 cleric ability this good? It's not just about OP or not ir's about even a semblence of balance.

The Twilight Cleric's own Eyes of the night (a 1st level ability ) is better.

If we are talking strictly 2nd level cleric abilities
1. Harness divine power is worse levels 2-5, about equal at levels 6-12 and better at levels 13+
2. Arcane Abjuration is better (although the rest of the subclass is awful)
3. Artisan's blessing is better
4. Knowlege of the ages is about equal
5. Order's Demand is about equal
6. Balm of Peace is better (because it brings up downed allies)
7. Destructive Wrath is better if you multiclass to leverage it (worse otherwise)
8. With certain builds guided strike is better (although not generally as good)

I played a twilight cleric from levels 1-4, the abilities are HEFTY. The twilight aura did make fights MUCH easier.

I am playing a twilight cleric, currently level 8. Twilight cleric is the most powerful cleric I have played, but it can't touch the more powerful subclasses like Bladesinger or several of Tasha's Rangers.

In the game I am playing with a TC, the only time we had a party member die (actually die) was at level 5 when the party wizard got hit with a poisioned crossbow bolt while I had TS active. The battle ended the very next turn, if I had went more Nova to start out, he probably would have lived. At 8th level, more often than not I am burning CD to get back spell slots and not using it for TS.

At levels 1-4 is where Twilight Sanctuary really shines, but once you get to level 5 there is a pretty substantial opportunity cost to using your action on that instead of a spell. If someone is charmed or you are fighting an enemy that charms people then it is awesome to have. It is also good if you forsee some big long slug fest where you are going to be adding temp hit points for 8 straight rounds (although that is rare and even more rare that you can predict it ahead of time). If you have a long day where you use all your spells, .... then too it is nice to have this instead of just swinging your greatsword. But in most combats you are going to be better served by opening with a 3+ level spell if you have it because by your second turn, combat is usually half over if everyone is doing their job.

The only thing I have really found that is "OP" is the 300 foot darkvision which lets you outsee just about every other thing in the game. In any dark area with clear sightlines you (and the people you gift it to) will see enemies long before they can see you. You can ambush them from like 300 feet away and they have to dash for 3+ turns before they can even see you. Ironically this ability clashes quite a bit with twilight sanctuary because if you use TS you light yourself up.

None of the rest is OP but in combination it is unbalanced compared to other clerics. You get an initiative bonus AND martial weapons AND heavy armor AND TS....

 

[DND_Reborn]

For what it's worth, game design courses teach a standard of 65-75%. It's apparently the sweet spot in studies about chances of success in RPGs, and feeling rewarded vs challenged. So that's what a lot of game designers aim for as a default.

I would say that is important for the over all challenge (such as an encounter), but not for each individual roll... in which case it becomes so commonplace one has to question: why bother?

Buy hey, tastes differ, and nowadays people don't seem happy with something unless they are getting the easy win, which is all most RPGs have become.

Anyway, if you want to continue discussing it further, PM me or we can start a new thread on the topic.