D&D (2024) How should the Swordmage be implemented in 1DnD?

[Yaarel]

I think we’ve found the issue.

You like sword mages, you don’t like half-casters because they aren’t powerful enough, therefore the swordmage cannot be a half caster.

IMO, we can make a low power or high power swordmage on any chassis. The question is more about thematics.

It has to do with a Swordmage needing to be a swordMAGE.

Anything that undermines the MAGE kills the swordMAGE.

It must be a fullcaster.

 

[Yaarel]

Swordplay doesn't have to be balanced with spellcasting because swordplay in 5th edition is largely underpowered compared to spell casting.

"Focus fire" that deals extreme damage to eliminate each threat one at a time, is the most powerful tactic in 5e. Martial classes are extremely powerful.

The problem with martial classes is they lack narrative control, and those spells that exert narrative control can outmaneuver and bypass the martial classes.

Putting a fullcaster within melee reach of a martial actually makes the game more fair for the martial player. The martial gets a chance at actual combat where the martial excels and is extremely deadly.

 

[FrogReaver]

It has to do with a Swordmage needing to be a swordMAGE.

Anything that undermines the MAGE kills the swordMAGE.

It must be a fullcaster.

take the blade singer, what mage parts are you willing to give up to make it more SWORDmage or is the blade singer exactly what you are looking for?

 

[Shardstone]

"Focus fire" that deals extreme damage to eliminate each threat one at a time, is the most powerful tactic in 5e. Martial classes are extremely powerful.

The problem with martial classes is they lack narrative control, and those spells that exert narrative control can outmaneuver and bypass the martial classes.

Putting a fullcaster within melee reach of a martial actually makes the game more fair for the martial player.

That's nothing spells can't do, there is a huge number of spells that attack one person etc. Putting four fullcasters around a martial and that martial is screwed, much more so then four martials around a fullcaster (who can likely just shield or use another reaction spell to get out of dodge).

 

[Shardstone]

It's telling that the most successful gish classes, official and 3PP/homebrew, enhance martials by turning melee attacks into vehicles for spells or spell effects. A swordmage is really just a caster that casts through their weapon in most cases.

 

[tetrasodium]

Have you ever played a half-caster before?

Yes I have. They tend to have a lot of noteworthy class abilities like the warlock but more balance and less of this & this

Earlier editions of D&D were never balanced.

The Wizard/Magicuser that too weak at low levels and too powerful at high levels is due to poor game design.

Gimping casters in combat is part of what caused imbalances in the game. Making casters incompetent in combat was NEVER a viable method to balance the features.

The way to make a melee caster balance is to ensure that it is balanced in melee challenges: so that it has enough hit points to be viable on the front line, and neither to die too soon nor to trivialize the level appropriate challenges. The melee caster needs the same survivability as the melee weapon wielder.

5e already has SEVERAL classes that are full casters who are competent in melee. It is no big deal.

It is important to avoid gimping a melee caster because of some false notion about the 1e Magic-User.

In past editions where casters of all levels were squishy they most certainly had buffs & debuffs that the other party members very much desired to see deployed. Tradeoffs like being squishy enough to make the possibility of being at risk of getting in melee was one of the trsdeoffs that casters faced. That was a key factor in why buffing martials was often considered self preservation to the point of class guides saying things like "In order to be effective at buffing - you turn your Big Stupid Fighter into a Colossal, Stupid Fighter on crack, and your Glass Cannon into an Adamantium Chain Gun. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.". 5e has "improved" that by ensuring that all three PCs being discussed there are going to solo near each other & not especially likely to do much beyond buff themselves or whatever dishes out the most damage rather than covering for each other's weaknesses with their own strengths.

 

[Yaarel]

That's nothing spells can't do, there is a huge number of spells that attack one person etc. Putting four fullcasters around a martial and that martial is screwed, much more so then four martials around a fullcaster (who can likely just shield or use another reaction spell to get out of dodge).

Putting four martials around a caster, and that caster is screwed. It would typically be instant death, since the caster has fewer hit points and the martials deal more damage.

 

[Shardstone]

Putting four martials around a caster, and that caster is screwed. It would typically be instant death, since the caster has fewer hit points and the martials deal more damage.

Give me a 20th level Diviner Wizard, let's roll initiative, and surround them with a Fighter, a Monk, a Barbarian, and another Fighter for kicks. Unless all four roll above the Wizard, the Wizard will not only get out of danger on their turn, they will potentially avoid all damage leading up to their turn, and they will likely cripple or screw over two of the martials as they get away from the other two.

Four Diviner Wizards around any martial is likely dead at the end of the round. Several hold persons, several finger of deaths, several wishes, etc etc; martials don't have a quarter of the resources fullcasters do, especially at higher levels.

 

[Yaarel]

It's telling that the most successful gish classes, official and 3PP/homebrew, enhance martials by turning melee attacks into vehicles for spells or spell effects. A swordmage is really just a caster that casts through their weapon in most cases.

In the 5e design theory, the Fighter traffics in hit points − having high hit points and dealing high weapon damage. The caster is swapping out these hit points in exchange for narrative control.

The Swordmage might be able to gain an Extra Attack. But shouldnt be gaining the third or fourth Extra Attack because it is doing spellcasting instead. The spells can deal heavy damage, but only in a nova per rest. This is the design principle.


But the range is irrelevant to the balance equation. For example, a martial might be an archer whose bow deals extreme damage from a distance, with the same benefits of a caster casting from a distance.

Likewise, both the caster and the martial can be melee range.

 

[Yaarel]

Give me a 20th level Diviner Wizard, let's roll initiative, and surround them with a Fighter, a Monk, a Barbarian, and another Fighter for kicks. Unless all four roll above the Wizard, the Wizard will not only get out of danger on their turn, they will potentially avoid all damage leading up to their turn, and they will likely cripple or screw over two of the martials as they get away from the other two.

Four Diviner Wizards around any martial is likely dead at the end of the round. Several hold persons, several finger of deaths, several wishes, etc etc; martials don't have a quarter of the resources fullcasters do, especially at higher levels.

The slot 9 spells are "uneven" in power and dont scale smoothly from lower slots.

The Legend Tier caster only has one slot 9 spell per long rest. No doubt the player will choose one that is game-altering.

If the caster novas to win the first combat encounter, the caster becomes extremely vulnerable to a second, third, or fourth encounter against Legend Tier martials.


Moreover, when the 2024 spells are calibrated and are balanced for their respective slot levels, each slot level will exemplify how much power should exist at each tier. At this point, it will be obvious how "mythic" a martial needs to be at the highest tiers. In other words, how much narrative control a martial player should have in order to maintain game balance at the highest tiers.