How should the Wizard subclasses be revised?

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
The big issue is that wizards are just a huge pile of mush because of the shared spell list. The necromancer, the conjurer, and the illusionist all show up to the table with Sleep. The abjurer, the evoker, and the oracle all show up with fireball. There's almost zero differentiation between spellcasters that should have different abilities and feel.

When 5e first came out I tried to play a necromancer. I wound up with the exact same spell list as the other wizard at the table and effectively the same abilities. Super lame. Things like the necromancer and summoner are just obvious examples of how things could be done differently from 5e because we've seen them handled differently in a million other video games, anime, etc. DnD just needs to step up and make things special instead of relying on the generic spell list as a class feature.
Maybe they should revamp the Specialist Wizard subclasses like they do the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster where you need to have a certain percentage of your spells from your specialist school. Or like how 3e did it, where you had to give up another school. Or both.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
If OneD&D was a do over, I'd go will Dual School Subclasss

Battle Mage (Abjuration & Evocation)
Nethermancy (Illusion & Necromancy)
Summoning (Conjuration and Enchantment)
Rune Magic (Divination & Transmutation)
 

Remathilis

Legend
Maybe they should revamp the Specialist Wizard subclasses like they do the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster where you need to have a certain percentage of your spells from your specialist school. Or like how 3e did it, where you had to give up another school. Or both.
The problem is that right now, there aren't enough spells to make dedicated specialists. I mean, have you tried to make a caster who focuses on something like summons, necromancy, or fire magic? At best you get one spell per level and a lot of redundant effects. You'd have to add I'd say a good 50 to 100 more spells to the game to make that work. It is still a struggle to get simple concepts like elementalists or shadow mages to work without having to dip into the Top 20 Best Wizard spells to round them out.
 

Remathilis

Legend
If OneD&D was a do over, I'd go will Dual School Subclasss

Battle Mage (Abjuration & Evocation)
Nethermancy (Illusion & Necromancy)
Summoning (Conjuration and Enchantment)
Rune Magic (Divination & Transmutation)
The issue with dual-schools is that there would be a lot of people who disagree with the pairings. Some might thing Illusion and Necromancy pair, but just as many might say a it belongs with enchantment (mind magics). Evocation and Abjuration are offense and defense, but Conjuration and Evocation are complementary magic that brings things into being. You would never get people to agree on any set of pairings, and eventually you'd get 105 subclasses trying to make every combination of pairs to work.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The issue with dual-schools is that there would be a lot of people who disagree with the pairings. Some might thing Illusion and Necromancy pair, but just as many might say a it belongs with enchantment (mind magics). Evocation and Abjuration are offense and defense, but Conjuration and Evocation are complementary magic that brings things into being. You would never get people to agree on any set of pairings, and eventually you'd get 105 subclasses trying to make every combination of pairs to work.
Perhaps that might be a reason for 0, 1, 2, or 3 school specialists

School of Generalists (no favored school)
School of Specialists (1 favored school)
School of Mavericks (2 favored schools)
School of Iconoclasts (3 favored schools)
 

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
I was giving this some thought yesterday and this is as far as I got with my notes:

Energy manipulation
Evocation - manipulate energy of elements
Necromancy - manipulate energy of life & death

Mind penetration
Enchantment - affect minds
Illusion - deceive the senses

Matter affects
Conjuration - summon; teleport; create objects
Transmutation - change properties of items/creatures

Detect & Protect
Abjuration- protective; create barriers; banish
Divination - reveal information

As you can see I ran out of steam with the last one. It was difficult to find a common theme with those two schools that I had left over. And I intended to go back and rename them as well.
 



FitzTheRuke

Legend
None of them based on spell schools at all. Spell schools go away once and for all.

Wizard gets Blaster, Shield mage, Summoner (is also necromancer), and Oracle.

Bards gets to eat enchantment and illusion spells.

Sorcerer gets transmutation.

Cleric gets divination

That's great!

... For a version of D&D that isn't simply a step-forward from 5e.

Honestly, I'd be fine (happy even) with a version of D&D that throws away things that no one really cares about (even if they think they do) like spell schools, but we all know it ain't happening any time soon.

My take (For what I think they can do with what we've stuck with):

If they gotta keep the schools, then I suggest that they combine a few of them when making specialists. We're probably stuck with Illusionist and Necromancer (because of tradition) and Evoker, but an Evoker is probably best as a Battle Mage.

So, yeah. Battle Mage; Illusionist; Necromancer & Summoner are my picks for subclasses when we're stuck at four.
 

Maybe they should revamp the Specialist Wizard subclasses like they do the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster where you need to have a certain percentage of your spells from your specialist school. Or like how 3e did it, where you had to give up another school. Or both.
Remathilis pretty much covered this but when i picked up 5e, the issue was that you literally couldn't kit your necromancer out with necromancy spells. 95%+ of your build was the exact same as every other wizard because there just wasn't enough to fill out the concept. There are a bunch of things like necromancer, elementalist, and summoner that deserve to get full class features instead of sharing the same spell list with every other wizard at the table.

I'll be honest, does the wizard subclass need revising for OneD&D? I feel like the wizard was done so weel for 5e, they shouldn't make any changes.
I guess this goes to show that if you take 2 different DND players, you might get 2 completely diametrically opposed views on what is done well.

So, yeah. Battle Mage; Illusionist; Necromancer & Summoner are my picks for subclasses when we're stuck at four.

I'd much, much rather wizard subclasses work like this instead of the piddly school subclasses. Give necromancer a full kit of undead animation and spirit control. Give the illusionist a full set of illusion and sound manipulation. Give the summoner big, unique summons and a pet. Give the wizard subclasses special stuff instead of just letting the class be a pile of old tofu.
 

Blue Orange

Gone to Texas
Remathilis pretty much covered this but when i picked up 5e, the issue was that you literally couldn't kit your necromancer out with necromancy spells. 95%+ of your build was the exact same as every other wizard because there just wasn't enough to fill out the concept. There are a bunch of things like necromancer, elementalist, and summoner that deserve to get full class features instead of sharing the same spell list with every other wizard at the table.


I guess this goes to show that if you take 2 different DND players, you might get 2 completely diametrically opposed views on what is done well.



I'd much, much rather wizard subclasses work like this instead of the piddly school subclasses. Give necromancer a full kit of undead animation and spirit control. Give the illusionist a full set of illusion and sound manipulation. Give the summoner big, unique summons and a pet. Give the wizard subclasses special stuff instead of just letting the class be a pile of old tofu.
Didn't they do this, more or less, in 2e and 3e? What happened to that?
 


Remathilis

Legend
Didn't they do this, more or less, in 2e and 3e? What happened to that?
They published a ton of new spells. Seriously. 2e had massive tomes of them. 3e had the Spell Compendium. 5e has Xanathar, a few in Tasha, and a handful elsewhere. Not nearly enough to cover most concepts.
 

Didn't they do this, more or less, in 2e and 3e? What happened to that?
It's been 20 years since i opened a 2e book but im pretty sure 3e is when the design became totally generalist. You had minor restrictions for schools but it was pretty much the same pile of mush for every wizard build.
 

Remathilis

Legend
It's been 20 years since i opened a 2e book but im pretty sure 3e is when the design became totally generalist. You had minor restrictions for schools but it was pretty much the same pile of mush for every wizard build.
1e had two "arcane" classes, magic-user and illusionist which had two different spell lists. 2e made illusionist a subclass of wizards and both spell lists were merged into one list, and remained that way. Technically the wizard had spells that the sorcerer didn't and vice versa, but they were only a handful in 3e.
 

Undrave

Legend
Here’s how I’d do it:

The Academic seeks to master a school of Magic. They pick a school of magic and get the cheaper copying abilities and even extra spells at certain levels and bonuses when casting their favored school.

The Lorehunter seeks forgotten knowledge and magic. The Wizardly counterpart of the Arcane Trickster, it’s a Wizard with a bit of Rogue who specializes in tomb raiding and plundering forbidden temples or forgotten libraries. Abilities to deal with trap, identifying magic items, deciphering ancients codes and also gains additional skills.

The Bladesinger seeks to marry magic and swords. Because the Swordmage is not coming back and people love this thing. Might be a new version that absorbs the Warmage.

The Diviner seeks to know the future. Because it’s the one Wizard subclass from the PHB I think is the most interesting and it’s a support focused subclass which is something the game needs more of.

I think a more focused Beguiler (Illusion/Enchantment) should be a Bard subclass, and I think a proper Necromancer can be kept for a future splat book. Maybe it could be a pet subclass? Not every possible archetype needs to be covered in the PHB so I think it’s fine to wait. It usually means the future subclass are better designed so I think Necromancer fans would appreciate a more polished version.
 

Undrave

Legend
Maybe they should revamp the Specialist Wizard subclasses like they do the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster where you need to have a certain percentage of your spells from your specialist school. Or like how 3e did it, where you had to give up another school. Or both.
Give the base Wizard class less spell, have the Subclass grants extra spell related to their theme. Same overall amount of spells, but your spells list is slightly more thematically appropriate and each Wizard can thus stand out from one another without being too boxed in either.
 

Undrave

Legend
I'll be honest, does the wizard subclass need revising for OneD&D? I feel like the wizard was done so weel for 5e, they shouldn't make any changes.
They work, but they’re boring as all Hell, there’s way too many of them for the PHB and they made additional Wizard subclass incredibly difficult to make because they’re not based on anything but that one weird classification of spells that, frankly, nobody else but the Wizard actually cares about.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
I'll agree with many others and say that the school based sub-classes with be gone, but spell schools themselves will remain (if for no other reason than 8 sub-classes would be too many for an initial PHB release). I think the they might keep classic wizard archetypes under another name though: war wizard (evokerish), summoner (with pre-defined statblocks a al Tasha's), sage (part diviner, part scribe), etc. Concepts like an enchanter are strong, but more and more Ick in the connotations what they do and how it works out in play; while classic archetypes like necromancer have always had the problem of cluttering up play with minions (which the summoner would already do, but hopefully would alleviated somewhat by pre-defined stat blocks), or just don't have enough spells of that niche to make a complete character.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I'd like Schools to go the way of the Fighting Style, a minor benefit that anyone could take. Yes a couple would need weaker benefits.

Then do a Bladesinger, War Mage, Summoner (pets of many types), Scribe/Archivist
I think there is a good chance that School Specialization might become a Feat tree likited to Mages: Choose School Specialty at Level 4 and choose a School (not repeatable) then choose a School Fest at 8th, on the same lines as the Planescape Feats from last years UA. So a Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard can all be a Necromancer or Illusionist or what have you for any Subclass. Allows the oldSpecialists to stay around, but frees up Wizard Subclass design space. Notably, the Wizard is one Class where the free SRD Subclass is never in the top 2 Subclass chocies.
 

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