How to stop Tumblers?

[DreadArchon]

Are you saying a simple tumble through an occupied square (DC25) across a natural cavern floor (+5) past a second opponent (+2) for a total DC 32 can only be carried out by Epic characters????

Of course not. Epic skills can always be used by non-epic characters if they can meet the DC. Or are you saying that someone who can make a DC 35 Tumble check to jump past someone should auto-fail a DC 30 Tumble check to avoid +10 feet of fall damage "because he's only level 12 and landing a 20-foot fall is epic?"

Game mechanics should not necessarily depend on how often one uses them.

Yes, they should. A Bard 1 Sorceror 18 using a Maximized Empowered Acid-Admixtured Delayed Blast Fireball at will would be awful, but it's hard enough to do that it's not all that bad once per day. Game balance should (and does) nearly always account for the frequency with which the matter at end is applicable.

However, if you can take the 1/2 speed penalty only for that one square of Tumble Through, I suppose it's a little better than I previously realized. Still...

 

[KarinsDad]

Tumble does nothing to the person who's squares you've tumbled through. Nothing at all. There is no Target.

Moreover, no where in the core rules are there *ever* opposed checks to determine if you provoke an AoO. Provoking from a 1st level commoner is exactly the same as provoking from a 20th level Ftr, etc for all situations.

The more I think on this, the more it becomes clear the designers got this right: No opposed checks for a tumble to avoid an AoO.

Good job, guys! (I don't say that often enough.)

Got it right?

How is a Tumble opposed check different than a Spot/Hide opposed check to notice a concealed and hiding character so that you can attack? The opposed check is not the attack, it is the ability to gain an attack. The "target" argument does not have any bearing on the discusion.

Think of it instead of "does the moving character lower his guard?" and more of "can the attacking character react quickly enough at the moving character to strike at him?". In fact, the very concept of a Tumbling character avoiding an AoO sounds like an oxymoron. If he is flipping and tumbling, how can he NOT be temporarily looking away / presenting his back to his opponent, etc.? Think of a simple roll or a back flip or any gymnastic maneuver. None of these have a gymnast looking in one direction the entire time, so he should lose sight of his attacker. The fact that WotC sold us all on this non-plausible concept when 3E first came out is amazing.


For Tumble Through in an opposed check system, it would be to see if you get through the opponent's square, not an attack. There are several opposed checks (e.g. Spot / Hide) in the game which are not attacks.

There are also times in the game when you sometimes make an opposed check for a function, but other times do not. Overrun is one of these. If the opponent avoids, there is no opposed check.


I think thou dost protest too much.

Yours sounds more like an "We've done it this way since 3E, so we should not change it" argument, than a which mechanic is the best one type of argument.


Approaching this from a slightly different direction:

Which function is more useful and powerful: Tumble or Overrun?

1) Tumble has four functions Avoiding AoOs, Moving Through Square, Lowering damage from a fall, and Entertaining an Audience, Overurn has two functions Knocking an Opponent Down and Moving Through Square: Advantage Tumble

2) Tumble has no defense, Overrun can be defended against: Advantage Tumble

3) Tumble ranks can eventually be high enough that its most three useful functions are 100% automatic, Overurn is almost never automatic (i..e Str / Size of the attacker beats the Str or Dex / Size of the defender by 19): Advantage Tumble

4) Tumble requires no feats, Overrun requires the Improved Overrun feat in order to ensure that the Knockdown function can be forced to be attempted: Advantage Tumble

5) Tumble does not use up an attack action, the Knockdown function of Overrun uses up an attack action: Advantage Tumble

6) Tumble can avoid the AoO, Overun always has an AoO (without a feat): Advantage Tumble

7) Tumble has no negative consequences outside of the AoO, the Knockdown function of Overrun can result in the attacker being knocked prone: Advantage Tumble

8) As levels increase, Tumble can be improved upon by 100%, making it easier to use at higher level than at lower levels, Overrun has only a few ways to improve it (improving Strength or Size, typically through magic which at best improves it by 40%) and opponents start getting strong, larger, and faster which means it works less often at higher levels than it does at lower levels: Advantage Tumble

9) Tumble can be done multiple times per round, Overrun can be done once per round: Advantage Tumble

10) Tumble can be done against any opponent, Overrun can only be done against opponents one size larger through smaller than the attacker: Advantage Tumble


1) Tumble requires a DC roll for all of its functions, Overrun requires an opposed roll for one function and none for the other: Advantage Overrun

2) Tumble is part of movement, lowering movement by 5 per square tumbled through, Overrun takes normal movement: Advantage Overrun

3) Tumble requires taking skill ranks, Overrun has no such requirements: Advantage Overrun

4) Tumble can only be done if the characters speed has not been reduced, Overrun can be done under those conditions: Advantage Overrun


So, 10 advantages for Tumble, 4 advantages for Overrun.


Or put another way, how often do PCs use Overrun at high level and how often do they use Tumble?

 

[DreadArchon]

Which function is more useful and powerful: Tumble or Overrun?
...
3) Tumble requires taking skill ranks, Overrun has no such requirements: Advantage Overrun
...
So, 10 advantages for Tumble, 4 advantages for Overrun.
...
Or put another way, how often do PCs use Overrun at high level and how often do they use Tumble?

Emphasis mine. You don't have to buy Overrun unless you want to be really good at it. You have to buy Tumble, a lot, be good at it. It's designed to be better, just like a Driving Attack (PHBII) is better than a Bull Rush. Free abilities should NEVER measure up to something that you have to buy into every level.

Think of it instead of "does the moving character lower his guard?" and more of "can the attacking character react quickly enough at the moving character to strike at him?"

But it is "does the moving character lower his guard," it has nothing to do with the attacker's reflexes. The attacker can't just magically say "bam, you're hit." He actually has to be able to make the strike, and the tumbler is moving when and where he can't. If the attacker made some sort of ridiculous off-balance swing at a tumbler that he had no real chance of hitting solidly, the attacker would deserve to provoke an AoO more than use one.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

5) Tumbling through characters square is a high level ability

6) Tumbling is a hard to boost.

7) Tumbling is only a class skill for a few classes

8) The dc of Tumbling can increase dramatically based on circumstance

9) Tumble doesent synergise with feats like mobilty and spring attack allowing for a better tumble, as tumble only gives 3 squares of movement unless the dc goes up by 10.

10) Tumbling is lowerd based on acp

 

[Stalker0]

How is a Tumble opposed check different than a Spot/Hide opposed check to notice a concealed and hiding character so that you can attack?

Here's the difference:

Spot
1) Used to detect hiding creatures
2) Used often to determine when combat starts
3) Used to notice key details
4) Used to possibly detect invisible creatures
5) Used to check for disguises
6) In most campaigns, the most common skill check called for.

Tumble
1) Used to bypass movement based AOOs or move through occupied squares.
2) Can reduce falling damage by 10 feet.
3) Provide entertainment.

This is the difference. Spot is used for dozens of different situations. Its easily the most important skill in most games I mean, who doesn't have to roll at least 2 or 3 spot checks per adventure is not more?

Tumble has a very few specific things it does. That's it. It should be good at them!

 

[KarinsDad]

5) Tumbling through characters square is a high level ability

6) Tumbling is a hard to boost.

7) Tumbling is only a class skill for a few classes

8) The dc of Tumbling can increase dramatically based on circumstance

9) Tumble doesent synergise with feats like mobilty and spring attack allowing for a better tumble, as tumble only gives 3 squares of movement unless the dc goes up by 10.

10) Tumbling is lowerd based on acp

5) Not true. First level PCs can Tumble. It only requires one rank.

6) I have no idea what this even means.

7) True, but not relevant. This is like saying that casting spells is limited because only spell casters can do it. WT?

8) The difficulty of knocking someone down can increase dramatically based on circumstance, plus Tumbling gets synergy bonuses that Overrun does not.

9) This is not true either. Where do you get this? Plus, I've already listed the movement penalty as an advantage for Overrun. You want to list it a second time???

10) Not true either. I've already listed that Tumble is prevented if movement is restricted.


So far, none of what you wrote here is worth anything in the discussion.

 

[KarinsDad]

Here's the difference:

Spot
1) Used to detect hiding creatures
2) Used often to determine when combat starts
3) Used to notice key details
4) Used to possibly detect invisible creatures
5) Used to check for disguises
6) In most campaigns, the most common skill check called for.

Tumble
1) Used to bypass movement based AOOs or move through occupied squares.
2) Can reduce falling damage by 10 feet.
3) Provide entertainment.

This is the difference. Spot is used for dozens of different situations. Its easily the most important skill in most games I mean, who doesn't have to roll at least 2 or 3 spot checks per adventure is not more?

Tumble has a very few specific things it does. That's it. It should be good at them!

Funny how Spotting invisible creatures and spotting hiding creatures are two entries on your list, but moving past and moving through Tumbles is one entry. #6 is not even real, it's the same as #3. Basically, it is 4 vs.4 (and if you read the Spot skill, there are only 4 listed there, 5 if you consider invisible different than hiding). You missed read lips which is probably rarely done. 5 vs. 4.

Biased??

And for Rogues, Tumbling might be used more than most other skills.

There are many skills used less than Tumble. Interesting how your argument requires comparing it to one of the most useful skills in the game. And yet again, utility is not what should decide game mechanics.

 

[KarinsDad]

But it is "does the moving character lower his guard," it has nothing to do with the attacker's reflexes.

That is merely WotC's "plausible" explanation of what Attacks of Opportunity are. It's fluff.

In reality, AoOs are merely a game mechanic used to level the playing field due to the fact that DND has a circular initiative system. The "nobody can act" problem is more evident to people in a circular initiative system than it is in the earlier 1E and 2E random initiative systems (although the problem still existed in those systems).

WotC came up with the game mechanic first to solve the initiative problem, then came up with the fluff explanation of why it occurs. Not the other way around.

As an example of the problem, without AoOs, a group of bandits could rush past all of the King's guards and kill the king and the guards could do nothing about it, just because their turn does not yet come up.

Try to get past the plausible explanation. WotC had to supply that because AoOs did not exist in 1E and 2E, and they had to give people a reason to buy into it. You'd be surprised when 3E first came out how many people were resistant to the idea of AoOs, even with the explanation. Over time, it became part of the culture (just like DCs), but don't limit your thinking to "this is how it has always been".

 

[Stalker0]

Funny how Spotting invisible creatures and spotting hiding creatures are two entries on your list, but moving past and moving through Tumbles is one entry. #6 is not even real, it's the same as #3. Basically, it is 4 vs.4 (and if you read the Spot skill, there are only 4 listed there, 5 if you consider invisible different than hiding). You missed read lips which is probably rarely done. 5 vs. 4.

Biased??

Your right, perhaps my list is biased. Alright, let me narrow it down:

6) In most campaigns, the most common skill called for.

That's all you need. Tumble is very narrow in what it does, certain other skills do a wide range of things. Why should +1 BAB negate my new rank in tumble, when BAB does a ton of different things, and my rank in tumble only very few?

 

[IndyPendant]

*shrug* You won't change Karinsdad's mind, if anyone's actually trying. He is absolutely, 100%, totally right. The opposing viewpoint does not have even the tiniest of truths to stand on. Just ask him.

I think it comes down to this: in Karinsdad's and similar games, don't bother taking Tumble, since it is now useless. Only take it in other games.