D&D General How welcome would a wordy and somewhat philosophical treatment of alignment be here? [Thread resolved, thank you.]

[DammitVictor]

Well, likewise. I replied in the spirit of the question.

So your contribution to this conversation began and ended in bad faith. Noted.

 

[Arnwolf666]

I would be curious to read it. But the important thing is if it works for your setting and group and helps you make the game better.

 

[generic]

Well, go ahead OP, post the essay!

 

[Umbran]

Gentlemen...

Treat each other with respect, before I have to break out red text.

 

[Celebrim]

So your contribution to this conversation began and ended in bad faith. Noted.

I don't think you know what "bad faith" with respect to debate means. But I think someone that offered to merciless criticize a piece prior to even reading it, would perhaps qualify as debating in bad faith. Likewise, someone who has decided before hand that they have no interest in something, who nonetheless persists in harassing those who do, might be said to be arguing in "bad faith".

I assure you, there has been no duplicity or mendacity upon my part. I wear my opinions on my sleeve.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Gentlemen, stop it.

Neither one of you seems to understand the concept of not making a discussion personal. If I see either one of you continue with the statements or insinuations about the character or motivations of the other are flawed, I shall boot you off the site for a week. Is that clear?

If it is not, PM me. The OP has a right to have a thread without this inappropriate interpersonal drivel.

 

[DammitVictor]

Yep. Several. Over the course of the years, I've had opportunity to teach several folks how to play, who really needed a handle on what a "role" really was, and how you build a character and personality that isn't your own, and display it for the rest of the players. For several of these folks, having a guideline to work with was instrumental.

That's actually a fair argument, if it's still wholly outside my experience-- I haven't really been responsible for introducing many people to the game, and obviously I would have downplayed the significance of alignment those times I have. The person who taught me to play is also responsible for much of my negative outlook on the alignment system.

For instance, he disallowed Lawful Evil PCs because it was a "contradiction in terms", and defrocked a Paladin for failing to attack a much more powerful Evil monster that was peacefully negotiating with us. It got better when I started playing with other people... but not much better.

I've been here since 1999, and on other RPG forums not long after. In the last twenty years, the only thread about Paladins I've seen that wasn't a Humane Society dumpster fire was Sepulchrave's Story Hour.

Also, for several tables that were admittedly playing in large part for escapism, the mechanical ability to just figure out, once and for all, whether the bad guys really were bad, was a solid way for them to be ale to relax more into the game.

This is also entirely fair... but the exact opposite of what most of the system's defenders say it's good for.

In fact, I'd argue it's this quality that makes alignment unsuitable for the exact kind of game those defenders claim they want and that alignment is necessary for.

And, in a couple, the system was well-used to drive some of the metaphysics of the world - when Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are palpable forces, as much as gravity is, that can be a great story-driving tool.

I saw a game like that once. I will readily admit, it was great. (Sepulchrave again.) I'm not sure how relevant it is to the vast majority of D&D games, however... and I have seen a lot of games derailed by the glaring contradictions in alignment.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Law vs Chaos or Good vs Evil would work better for me than the 9-alignment system, but I still think no system at all would be preferable. D&D's default world has always revolved around a good vs evil conflict (even when it was called Law vs Chaos it was really good vs evil), with Law vs Chaos being quite superfluous.

My other problem is that D&D couples its alignments with biological racial determinism and an assortment of races, the "savage humanoids" that have many parallels with real world colonised peoples. Frex, orcs in 1e AD&D have "witch doctors".

In the real world, people don't have an allegiance to "good" or "evil". Those aren't sides in a cosmic struggle. They have an allegiance to religions, cultures, ideologies, institutions, nations, clans and so forth and they call those "good" and those of the other lot are "evil".

Which is not to say that I think good and evil have no applicability, just that they don't align with peoples and gods as they do in D&D.

 

[Umbran]

The person who taught me to play is also responsible for much of my negative outlook on the alignment system.

For instance, he disallowed Lawful Evil PCs because it was a "contradiction in terms", and defrocked a Paladin for failing to attack a much more powerful Evil monster that was peacefully negotiating with us.

Yes. And you cannot blame someone for not liking Brussels sprouts, if the only preparation they've had was having them boiled to death. If the only version of the thing you've seen is a bad one, yeah, you'll want to avoid it. That's understandable.

This is also entirely fair... but the exact opposite of what most of the system's defenders say it's good for.

Well, most folks who like a subsystem like it because it serves some particular purpose in their gaming. And that's fine. They'll defend it for use in that purpose. I just happen to have seen multiple good purposes for it.

In fact, I'd argue it's this quality that makes alignment unsuitable for the exact kind of game those defenders claim they want and that alignment is necessary for.

So, you can sink a screw into wood with a screwdriver. A naive consideration would then say that the tool would be inappropriate for removing screws. But, really, all you need to do is twist the other way to do that. What you can do with a tool often depends upon your approach to that tool.

I'm not sure how relevant it is to the vast majority of D&D games, however... and I have seen a lot of games derailed by the glaring contradictions in alignment.

You'd have to be more clear about what you think are glaring contradictions before we could address that.

But, honestly, this thread isn't about your thoughts on alignment, or mine. It was about the OP's thoughts on the matter.

 

[DammitVictor]

But, honestly, this thread isn't about your thoughts on alignment, or mine. It was about the OP's thoughts on the matter.

Well, I was genuinely curious about those an hour ago. I do hope he gets around to posting them.