I admit it...

[Allanon]

Allanon:
Yep, I played Torment, great game. Still doesn't compare at all to PnP RPG's.

And I agree with Henry. A good DM can out RPG any CRPG.
Now the trick is to find that elusive good DM. How many DM's would allow you to play a immortal amnesiac? And if they do allow it, would allow you to leave Sigil, go to Fearûn and start a lucrative adventuring career?

I think that Henry is refering to ULTIMATE(tm) DM. The one that has a plan for every eventuality, who can roleplay every NPC and who always has a plot right for every player and situation and a story which could outsell Harry Potter anyday if it was ever published.
But even Piratecat and Jonrog1 aren't that good to name but two I know of (Not that I don't look up to them like the DM'ing gods they are ofcourse ).

 

[Allanon]

No.

Why? Because the plot and writing in PST is THAT DAMN GOOD, that it sucks you in and compels you utterly to follow the little food pellets laid down in front of you, until you reach the lever. Then you can pull either the blue lever or the red lever, to get more food pellets. Repeat until you get to the end, where the ultimate consequences of which levers you chose are made clear.

Of course, some people don't care for either the blue _or_ the red lever, because they believe that they can tell a better story than what's in the game. This is not particularly surprising. The web is full of unread blogs and crap fanfics, after all.

And in the end, free will is never absolute, even in a PnP game. Limitations exist in the form of genre conventions and expectations, the implied world of the ruleset you use, and the demands of the gaming group. You won't find many people wanting to play a space marine in a D&D game, for example (at least I don't think so). Even if you did, you probably wouldn't let them, unless there was some exceptional circumstance going on. You're also not likely to get very far trying to play a Traveller-type merchant in a game like D&D that emphasises dungeoneering, before bumping up hard against shortcomings in the ruleset.

Similarly, a group with wildly diverse characters is probably going to spend more time arguing with each other than actually getting anything done. There are some people who consider arguing to be the sine qua non of roleplaying. There are websites that cater for people like these, and some of them don't even charge money for all the pretty pictures.

What he said

 

[Desdichado]

People who burble on how video games are crap literally do not know what they're talking about.

Or they simply don't like video games. Also note; I didn't say video games are crap, merely that I don't want my PnP RPG sessions to play like one.

 

[Henry]

Why? Because the plot and writing in PST is THAT DAMN GOOD, that it sucks you in and compels you utterly to follow the little food pellets laid down in front of you, until you reach the lever. Then you can pull either the blue lever or the red lever, to get more food pellets. Repeat until you get to the end, where the ultimate consequences of which levers you chose are made clear.

I came away with a different experience when I played PS:Torment - it was good, to be sure, but it really wasn't that good to me, though my annoyance was more from the interface and the game rules used than anything - I didn't finish because that whole "be a fighter / be a thief / be a mage - but not all three" thing, as well as some of the puzzles that you were led by the nose to follow, as in the "inner sanctum that you set up yourself" that you HAD to complete, bugged me enough to not finish it. That, and I had a regular campaign at the time.

A good DM can out RPG any CRPG.
Now the trick is to find that elusive good DM. How many DM's would allow you to play a immortal amnesiac? And if they do allow it, would allow you to leave Sigil, go to Fearûn and start a lucrative adventuring career?

I'll go so far as to espouse that even average DM's are better than any computer game yet on the market. I've had DM's whose starting premises were even wilder than Planescape's - the party were all "golden children" (all 18's for stats) with various power groups hounding us to death (literally) - with a very good plotline behind the why of our existance. But most DM's don't allow it because they want all the players to have equal "star time" and making one a "sole immortal" would not be as fun for the rest (Games like Eden's Buffy the Vampire Slayer notwithstanding).

Would a DM have allowed it? Of Course! It's what makes part of Tabletop roleplay fun! The DM can see all sorts of oppotunities in what lies ahead - the quest to find the proper gate, the NPC's that can be recycled for the new plotline, the plans the penniless PC makes in a world that has never known he existed, etc. etc.

In Piratecat's Game, he had the Great Modron March set up, ready to roll. His players took one look at the Modron's Marching, said to themselves, "Screw it, we don't care why the Modrons are marching" and left Sigil. In fact, according to the Story Hour, the Modron March still serves as an in-joke with his players, that keeps cropping up from time to time. You don't get that kind of improv and fast-thinking from a CRPG - yet.

Video Games definitely have their place as an entertaining medium, and as the concept evolves over time - with things like MMOPRG's maturing and adding remarkable potential to future offerings - the future of a blend of human roleplay and immersive virtual quality looks quite bright. But I also cannot accept that current and previous releases can offer the depth of entertainment that a human mind can provide spontaneously, nor can it yet offer the crucial human interaction that makes pen and paper RPG's the unique quantity that they are.

And I apologize for taking this thread quite off-topic. The goal was discussion of the downplay of games like Final Fantasy and the current RPG generation, which I find no fault with. But I do see the relationship of CRPG and RPG as still currently one of "visual immersion with little improv" vs. "less immersive but mroe flexibility" - but the line blurs a little more every year.

 

[Desdichado]

And I agree with Henry. A good DM can out RPG any CRPG.
Now the trick is to find that elusive good DM. How many DM's would allow you to play a immortal amnesiac? And if they do allow it, would allow you to leave Sigil, go to Fearûn and start a lucrative adventuring career?

I think that Henry is refering to ULTIMATE(tm) DM. The one that has a plan for every eventuality, who can roleplay every NPC and who always has a plot right for every player and situation and a story which could outsell Harry Potter anyday if it was ever published.
But even Piratecat and Jonrog1 aren't that good to name but two I know of (Not that I don't look up to them like the DM'ing gods they are ofcourse ).

Oh, c'mon! Sure, really good DMs might be rare, but you don't need the Ultimate DM to compete with CRPG stories. CRPGs are written by normal people too, y'know.

 

[diaglo]

i still have the GQ article with the babe from the new Planet of the Apes movie on the cover.

inside the guys who designed Diablo, Warcraft, Spycraft, etc... Blizzard Entertainment...admit to playing D&D in their youth. the inspiration for the creation of the videogames.

 

[hong]

I came away with a different experience when I played PS:Torment - it was good, to be sure, but it really wasn't that good to me, though my annoyance was more from the interface and the game rules used than anything - I didn't finish because that whole "be a fighter / be a thief / be a mage - but not all three" thing, as well as some of the puzzles that you were led by the nose to follow, as in the "inner sanctum that you set up yourself" that you HAD to complete, bugged me enough to not finish it. That, and I had a regular campaign at the time.

It sounds like you've seen barely a third of it. The initial encounters in the Hive can be a bit tedious, but the later stages are awesome. It's just about the only game that regularly evokes comparisons to literature and high art on the csipg.rpg newsgroup.

Video Games definitely have their place as an entertaining medium, and as the concept evolves over time - with things like MMOPRG's maturing and adding remarkable potential to future offerings - the future of a blend of human roleplay and immersive virtual quality looks quite bright. But I also cannot accept that current and previous releases can offer the depth of entertainment that a human mind can provide spontaneously, nor can it yet offer the crucial human interaction that makes pen and paper RPG's the unique quantity that they are.

"Where's the Cheetos?"

 

[francisca]

The other day I told my players that if their characters tried to move around in the dark, they might get eaten by a grue. Most of them gave me blank looks.

Ha! Yes, and doors barred by fierce green snakes and smells of the wumpus have made several appearances at my table. Some get it. Some don't.

Of course, I stare at them blanky and say "I don't understand that sentence." quite often, usually when they try to bend a rule a bit too much or do something incredibly complex in a move-equivalent action. They haven't picked up on that one yet. I think it's too subtle. Or, just too cryptic.........<sigh>

 

[Henry]

It sounds like you've seen barely a third of it. The initial encounters in the Hive can be a bit tedious, but the later stages are awesome. It's just about the only game that regularly evokes comparisons to literature and high art on the csipg.rpg newsgroup.

How far along is the Sensates Party? That's about where I gave up in frustration - either that, or plundering the bedroom that used to be mine in-game and finding out what an evil I used to be.

"Where's the Cheetos?"

There's nothing quite like turning to your Sorcerer companion Thorgar, of many years campaigning against the Northern Hordes, and hearing him say, "D00d! Dis nu rod of thunderboltz r0xxx0rs!"

 

[Len]

In fact, according to the Story Hour, the Modron March still serves as an in-joke with his players, that keeps cropping up from time to time. You don't get that kind of improv and fast-thinking from a CRPG - yet.

You don't, but I do. There were several instances of that in a Neverwinter Nights campaign I played in recently. Heck, we spent one session sitting around telling improved stories.