I know but... e-tool = crap
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Matthew The Mage
First Post
Therigwin said:
My bad
. I meant to type Yours is cool also.Sorry but typing before coffee is a bad idea.
Learn to quote properly, its not too difficult and in fact reply with quotes will handle all but adequate trimming, as evidence of this great and magical feature:
Clueless, troll or naive, pick one. My statement has nothing to do with your skill, or your ego, it has to do with one simple fact: I have etools in front of me and it does some "stuff", your app (the original posters) is only a twisted ego dream, in your head. In a true sense of rational and pragmaticism, anything(etools) is infinitely more important and valuable than nothing (your mentioned unmade product).
As for leftism, I guess I can say that I do feel that to arbitrarily state superiority showing no cause or proof of that, does in fact make you inferior. Thats only to say that having an inflated ego, or a need to inflate your ego is an inferior life model. My view is not strange or complex, naturally if you raise yourself up, by another perspective you have lowered everyone else, so do the math. (Tip: There are more of the latter than the former in that equation.)
Vicegrip said:
Clueless, troll or naive, pick one. My statement has nothing to do with your skill, or your ego, it has to do with one simple fact: I have etools in front of me and it does some "stuff", your app (the original posters) is only a twisted ego dream, in your head. In a true sense of rational and pragmaticism, anything(etools) is infinitely more important and valuable than nothing (your mentioned unmade product).
As for leftism, I guess I can say that I do feel that to arbitrarily state superiority showing no cause or proof of that, does in fact make you inferior. Thats only to say that having an inflated ego, or a need to inflate your ego is an inferior life model. My view is not strange or complex, naturally if you raise yourself up, by another perspective you have lowered everyone else, so do the math. (Tip: There are more of the latter than the former in that equation.)
Lazarus Smith
First Post
A wise man once said:
No matter how bad you are, there is always someone out there who is worse, because they think that they are better.
I am not a programmer, I am a fantasy author. E-Tools is VERY useful in several ways (yes, the table creator is great). However, it is incomplete in several ways as well.
To think that you, or anyone, could "crank out" a better version than this is simple hubris.
I do appreciate everyone who has worked so hard to make the best of a bad situation, but you guys who want to get in a prick waving contest are really starting to bore me.
I do wish that some of you had been on the team of developers over at Fluid. Many of you have great ideas, and I would have liked to see them realized. They will not be, though, for the same reason that Fluid has put E-Tools on the back burner. You, like them, are not getting paid. Fluid made their money, we got the disks. Period. Want to make it better? Please do. Like I said, I appreciate all of you who really try. I've got the Happy Mr. Skull too. People like Eric, Davin, Paris, and all of the others rock, as well as you guys who have posted legitimate ideas here.
No, I'm not a programmer, but you know what, E-Tools wasn't made for programmers. It was made for idiots like me. I could not have created a sliver of the neat stuff that E-Tools is capable of (though I could have done the art better, and have replaced much of the art design on my own)
Dead horse beaten?
No matter how bad you are, there is always someone out there who is worse, because they think that they are better.
I am not a programmer, I am a fantasy author. E-Tools is VERY useful in several ways (yes, the table creator is great). However, it is incomplete in several ways as well.
To think that you, or anyone, could "crank out" a better version than this is simple hubris.
I do appreciate everyone who has worked so hard to make the best of a bad situation, but you guys who want to get in a prick waving contest are really starting to bore me.
I do wish that some of you had been on the team of developers over at Fluid. Many of you have great ideas, and I would have liked to see them realized. They will not be, though, for the same reason that Fluid has put E-Tools on the back burner. You, like them, are not getting paid. Fluid made their money, we got the disks. Period. Want to make it better? Please do. Like I said, I appreciate all of you who really try. I've got the Happy Mr. Skull too. People like Eric, Davin, Paris, and all of the others rock, as well as you guys who have posted legitimate ideas here.
No, I'm not a programmer, but you know what, E-Tools wasn't made for programmers. It was made for idiots like me. I could not have created a sliver of the neat stuff that E-Tools is capable of (though I could have done the art better, and have replaced much of the art design on my own)
Dead horse beaten?
Last edited:
Henry
Autoexreginated
Any future replies to this thread need to remember two things:
#1. Grandmother's watching.
#2. Insulting other people makes Grandmother cry.
I myself was not thoroughly pleased with Fluid's finished product, but calling it "crap" is invalidating the countless hours of work and playtesting that went into creating a still-useful tool.
After reading Scott Matthews' interview with Eric Noah, I can say that I honestly WILL shed a tear for all the work that Fluid's Eric and others did on the map-maker, audio play, etc. - that wound up on the "cutting-room floor." The potential for an all-encompassing gaming tool is enormous, and I am very sorry to see that so much work was essentially lost.
#1. Grandmother's watching.
#2. Insulting other people makes Grandmother cry.
I myself was not thoroughly pleased with Fluid's finished product, but calling it "crap" is invalidating the countless hours of work and playtesting that went into creating a still-useful tool.
After reading Scott Matthews' interview with Eric Noah, I can say that I honestly WILL shed a tear for all the work that Fluid's Eric and others did on the map-maker, audio play, etc. - that wound up on the "cutting-room floor." The potential for an all-encompassing gaming tool is enormous, and I am very sorry to see that so much work was essentially lost.
[[ This thread is only meant for our amusement, the person who started it contributed absolutely nothing usefull. ]]
--No? I think he did, you're just too emotional to see it.
--What he said, while framed in an aggressive and somewhat juvenile fashion, was pretty accurate. I think we still should be looking around for the defining RPG/d20 electronic product. I don't think that this most recent offering does the job. You can go after his style if you want, and obsess over his unwillingness to cater to your fragile online feelings, or you can try to glean some value from the discussion.
--It's pretty simple dude. If we continue to clamor for a better product, marketing people will hear that, and funding might show up for it. If you sit there poking happily at a product that only does half of what it should, chances are it's all you'll ever have.
[[ How utterly devoid of logic that was. ]]
--Wow. I repeat somebody else's flawed logic in a sarcastic manner, and somehow I become guilty of the flawed logic.
[[ Note that your "6 month" figure was only posted after I had replied. ]]
--You sure about that? Care to go back and check? Probably not. Let me do it for you. My mention of a 6 month timeline occurs at 09-13-2002 12:34 AM. Your first post on this thread that's not just a rehash of the same jab at the thread starter was at 09-13-2002 12:46 AM. Why does this even matter? Why say incorrect things when they don't even strengthen your point?
[[ Do you consider half a year of programming to be trivial, something that is "crank(ed) out"? ]]
--Yes and no. Considering that I would expect to have the thing done in 3 months, then spend another 3 dealing with the publisher or whoever else, and considering that it's a fairly large scope project, then yeah, I'd call that "cranking it out." In this case I'm factoring in the scope of the project, and the fact that there's no really huge programming hurdles to overcome. I use the term 'crank' to imply that the development should be smooth and trouble free, despite being time consuming. There's no firewalls to suddenly appear and require a tunnel to get through, there's no media streams that suddenly need to be embedded, no access to a remote system that isn't getting processed for a week. It's just straight HTML, scripting and database. I use the term "crank" to mean that you'd be able to work uninterrupted, and thus steadily and rapidly. The actual time taken isn't really what I'm speaking to.
--So, I apologize for using a term in an idiosyncratic fashion. I hope I have clarified.
[[ You certainly no longer seem to be claiming that the programming is trivial, so what's your deal there? ]]
--No, it's pretty trivial. There's just a lot of it to be done.
--My deal is simple. The product that's being offered here was in production for over a year, and was being worked on by a TEAM of people. My 6 month figure is for a single person working on the project. Give me a couple of my friends to handle various components of the tool, and we could have it done it 2 months.
--You're flipping back and forth between a single person and a team, and not even seeing that you're doing it.
[[ Learn to quote properly ]]
--I prefer to quote with square braces. Sorry if it doesn't hit your eye well. Not all BBs have a quote feature. Not all allow you to italicize. All keyboards have square braces and dashes.
[[ Clueless, troll or naive, pick one. ]]
--Jeez, what was I thinking? This is the internet, where "not nice" and "factually incorrect" are synonyms. I should spend my first three weeks on this board posting polite little "me toos" and sucking up to the regulars until I know how to ingratiate myself to the current power structure.
--Or perhaps not.
[[ In a true sense of rational and pragmaticism, anything(etools) is infinitely more important and valuable than nothing (your mentioned unmade product). ]]
--Absolutely true. E-tools is clearly a product with some value. I'm not suggesting it's a bad product and shouldn't be purchased, because it's your money to spend as you wish. What I am saying, is that we can still hope for more from such a product. You should be encouraging people who claim they can do better, rather than lording over your little fiefdom of love for e-tools. You should also be keeping the call out for a defining product, as I mentioned earlier.
[[ To think that you, or anyone, could "crank out" a better version than this is simple hubris. ]]
--Ok, look. It's not. I know we all like to be as polite, humble and friendly to our online pals as possible, but this quote is just not correct.
--Somewhere in this world are a collection of people who could have stepped in, kicked the ass off this project, and turned out something that would amaze everyone. These weren't the folks that worked on it. Now, you may not think I'm not one of those ass kicking guys, and honestly I don't expect you to. However, they are out there, and Fluid's effort was clearly not the upper limit of what we can expect. It's not hubris to assume that somebody could have done better.
--Just to put this all in context, I think it's worth mentioning how good I think d20 is. I'm not somebody who just dismisses everything as inferior to what I "could" do. I think d20 is an incredibly well thought out and well organized system, and I think that only enhances the ways it can tie in with electronic products. And THAT only weakens the degree to which e-tools impresses me. If they had made the same featureset for 2e DnD that'd be fairly impressive, for all the twisted up and confused rules that game had. But this is 3e. It's a great game that demands great products.
[[ I do wish that some of you had been on the team of developers over at Fluid. ]]
--I don't want to put these guys down too much. From the sound of it, the real weakness of this project was in the management of it. However, management is part of the picture. If anything, that only serves to show how a dedicated independent (somebody like Jamis Buck, again) might be better qualified to produce some nice stuff than a team of folks who have to answer to corporate timelines and the like.
--No? I think he did, you're just too emotional to see it.
--What he said, while framed in an aggressive and somewhat juvenile fashion, was pretty accurate. I think we still should be looking around for the defining RPG/d20 electronic product. I don't think that this most recent offering does the job. You can go after his style if you want, and obsess over his unwillingness to cater to your fragile online feelings, or you can try to glean some value from the discussion.
--It's pretty simple dude. If we continue to clamor for a better product, marketing people will hear that, and funding might show up for it. If you sit there poking happily at a product that only does half of what it should, chances are it's all you'll ever have.
[[ How utterly devoid of logic that was. ]]
--Wow. I repeat somebody else's flawed logic in a sarcastic manner, and somehow I become guilty of the flawed logic.
[[ Note that your "6 month" figure was only posted after I had replied. ]]
--You sure about that? Care to go back and check? Probably not. Let me do it for you. My mention of a 6 month timeline occurs at 09-13-2002 12:34 AM. Your first post on this thread that's not just a rehash of the same jab at the thread starter was at 09-13-2002 12:46 AM. Why does this even matter? Why say incorrect things when they don't even strengthen your point?
[[ Do you consider half a year of programming to be trivial, something that is "crank(ed) out"? ]]
--Yes and no. Considering that I would expect to have the thing done in 3 months, then spend another 3 dealing with the publisher or whoever else, and considering that it's a fairly large scope project, then yeah, I'd call that "cranking it out." In this case I'm factoring in the scope of the project, and the fact that there's no really huge programming hurdles to overcome. I use the term 'crank' to imply that the development should be smooth and trouble free, despite being time consuming. There's no firewalls to suddenly appear and require a tunnel to get through, there's no media streams that suddenly need to be embedded, no access to a remote system that isn't getting processed for a week. It's just straight HTML, scripting and database. I use the term "crank" to mean that you'd be able to work uninterrupted, and thus steadily and rapidly. The actual time taken isn't really what I'm speaking to.
--So, I apologize for using a term in an idiosyncratic fashion. I hope I have clarified.
[[ You certainly no longer seem to be claiming that the programming is trivial, so what's your deal there? ]]
--No, it's pretty trivial. There's just a lot of it to be done.
--My deal is simple. The product that's being offered here was in production for over a year, and was being worked on by a TEAM of people. My 6 month figure is for a single person working on the project. Give me a couple of my friends to handle various components of the tool, and we could have it done it 2 months.
--You're flipping back and forth between a single person and a team, and not even seeing that you're doing it.
[[ Learn to quote properly ]]
--I prefer to quote with square braces. Sorry if it doesn't hit your eye well. Not all BBs have a quote feature. Not all allow you to italicize. All keyboards have square braces and dashes.
[[ Clueless, troll or naive, pick one. ]]
--Jeez, what was I thinking? This is the internet, where "not nice" and "factually incorrect" are synonyms. I should spend my first three weeks on this board posting polite little "me toos" and sucking up to the regulars until I know how to ingratiate myself to the current power structure.
--Or perhaps not.
[[ In a true sense of rational and pragmaticism, anything(etools) is infinitely more important and valuable than nothing (your mentioned unmade product). ]]
--Absolutely true. E-tools is clearly a product with some value. I'm not suggesting it's a bad product and shouldn't be purchased, because it's your money to spend as you wish. What I am saying, is that we can still hope for more from such a product. You should be encouraging people who claim they can do better, rather than lording over your little fiefdom of love for e-tools. You should also be keeping the call out for a defining product, as I mentioned earlier.
[[ To think that you, or anyone, could "crank out" a better version than this is simple hubris. ]]
--Ok, look. It's not. I know we all like to be as polite, humble and friendly to our online pals as possible, but this quote is just not correct.
--Somewhere in this world are a collection of people who could have stepped in, kicked the ass off this project, and turned out something that would amaze everyone. These weren't the folks that worked on it. Now, you may not think I'm not one of those ass kicking guys, and honestly I don't expect you to. However, they are out there, and Fluid's effort was clearly not the upper limit of what we can expect. It's not hubris to assume that somebody could have done better.
--Just to put this all in context, I think it's worth mentioning how good I think d20 is. I'm not somebody who just dismisses everything as inferior to what I "could" do. I think d20 is an incredibly well thought out and well organized system, and I think that only enhances the ways it can tie in with electronic products. And THAT only weakens the degree to which e-tools impresses me. If they had made the same featureset for 2e DnD that'd be fairly impressive, for all the twisted up and confused rules that game had. But this is 3e. It's a great game that demands great products.
[[ I do wish that some of you had been on the team of developers over at Fluid. ]]
--I don't want to put these guys down too much. From the sound of it, the real weakness of this project was in the management of it. However, management is part of the picture. If anything, that only serves to show how a dedicated independent (somebody like Jamis Buck, again) might be better qualified to produce some nice stuff than a team of folks who have to answer to corporate timelines and the like.
Fast Learner
First Post
You posted while I was composing mine. It did matter because you callied it trivial and I was noting that it was not. After I had posted I was then able to see your six-month estimate.Vicegrip said:
None of which matters for crap, of course.
And... based on postings on Fluid's boards, it appears that the vast majority of the code was, actually, written by one person.
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