D&D 5E I thought that I had seen a Range limit to the sneak attack with the Ranged Weapon, 30 feet

[Cernor]

This thread is now over

It is, but if strict adherence to RAW is considered "right", then Mearls (who, iirc, isn't the "official" rules guy) and you are wrong. For a comprehensive look at the rules pertaining to ranged and melee weapons and weapon attacks, read on (and yes, I'm shamelessly ripping myself off from the dagger-throwing thread):

[SBLOCK]Let's find the definition of weapons, then put it into the basis of "specific beats general". At the beginning of the Weapons category, it's stated that every weapon is either a melee weapon or ranged weapon. It is also stated that melee weapons are used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, while a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.

Right here we have two general rules about weapons. Barring any specific cases, these two facts must be true:
1. Every weapon is classified as either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon.
2. Every melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, while every ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.

In the "Weapon Proficiency" section, no text provides further clarification; the above two points still stand. However, we get to the "Weapon Properties" section and a few specific rules show up which contradict the second of the previous statements:
3. If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon; that is, it deals 1d4 damage and requires a separate proficiency.
4. A weapon with the reach property adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it; that is, a melee weapon with reach can be used to attack a creature within 10 feet instead of 5.
5. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would for a melee attack with the weapon.

Point 5 brings up a question as to the inherent differences between a melee attack and a ranged attack: we must now find general rules that state these differences so that we can understand what, exactly, this specific rule "beats". In Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores, we find:

6. You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin. You use melee weapons to make melee attacks in hand-to-hand combat, and some of them can be thrown to make a ranged attack.
7. You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, such as a sling or a longbow. You can also add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon that has the finesse property, such as a dagger or rapier.

We can see that the book distinguishes between melee weapons and melee weapon attacks, as well as ranged weapons and ranged weapon attacks. Although ranged weapons are primarily used to make ranged weapon attacks and melee weapons are primarily used to make melee weapon attacks, there are some cases where ranged weapons are used to make melee weapon attacks and some where melee weapons are used to make ranged weapon attacks. We can also see a fourth specific rule from point 7: weapons with the finesse property can use Dexterity as their ability modifier for melee attacks.

General rule 1: Every weapon is classified as either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon.
General rule 2: Every melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, while every ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
General rule 3: You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin. You use melee weapons to make melee attacks in hand-to-hand combat, and some of them can be thrown to make a ranged attack.
General rule 4: You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and your damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, such as a sling or a longbow. You can also add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon that has the finesse property, such as a dagger or rapier.

Specific rule 1: If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon; that is, it deals 1d4 damage and requires a separate proficiency.
Specific rule 2: A weapon with the reach property adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it; that is, a melee weapon with reach can be used to attack a creature within 10 feet instead of 5.
Specific rule 3: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would for a melee attack with the weapon.
Specific rule 4: When making an attack with the finesse property, you use your choice of Strength or Dexterity for your attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.

Ramifications of Specific rule 1: This means that General rule 2 must not necessarily be true, because a ranged weapon can be used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, making a melee attack.
Ramifications of Specific rule 2: This also means the part of General rule 2 regarding melee weapons is not necessarily true, because not every melee weapon must be used to attack a target within 5 feet of you.
Ramifications of Specific rule 3: This, in conjunction with Specific rules 1 and 2, makes General rule 2 entirely obsolete; some melee weapons can be used to make a ranged attack against targets not necessarily within 5 feet of you.
Ramifications of Specific rule 4: With General rule 4 making an allowance for the finesse property, this rule simply stops General rule 3 from encompassing all melee weapons.

The table of weapons acts as a specific rule, and is the only place where the assumptions of General rule 1 might be challenged. However, lacking any specific instances where a weapon is considered both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon, we are forced to conclude that General rule 1 is true in all cases: every weapon is either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, regardless of whether it's currently being used to make a melee weapon attack or a ranged weapon attack.

Thus, we have the following rules regarding weapons and weapon attacks:
1. Every weapon is either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon.
2. You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon, whether the attack is a melee attack or ranged attack. If a weapon has the finesse property, you use your choice of Strength or Dexterity for its attack and damage rolls.
3. You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack and damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon, whether the attack is a ranged attack or a melee attack. If a weapon has the finesse property, you use your choice of Strength or Dexterity for its attack and damage rolls.
4. A ranged weapon with the ammunition property used to make a melee attack is considered an improvised weapon, and uses the rules described therein. [/SBLOCK]

 

[Zinnger]

I don't know if anyone is assuming that this is a willy-nilly option... but there are several options within the rules that can allow you to make an attack with a bonus action with less restrictions, such as a Scimitar of Speed. The 20th level rogue I saw obliterate enemies in a high level dungeon crawl made three attacks per round, every round - and all were sneak attacks. On his turn he used the bonus action from his scimitar of speed to attack. He marked a foe (DMG optional rule) on this attack. He then used his (regular) action to ready an attack to take place on another turn (usually when an ally did something). This used up his regular action and devoted his reaction. However, because the foe was marked, when the creature provoked an opportunity attack, he was still able to make it. That provoked OA is not usually a reliable thing, but in that game it was.

Regardless, getting two sneak attacks as a ranged rogue is going to be rare. Getting two with a melee rogue is far more common.

I still do not see how any rogue will ever get three sneak attacks in one round. It is true that a "very rare" Scimitar of Speed will allow use of a bonus action to attack without the use of your action thus allowing for a ready action but I am not sure how many rogues have this item. But with or without this very rare item the rogue will still have to settle for only two sneak attack damages. One on the rogues turn and one with the use of his/her reaction on someone else turn.

1) Pg. 193 states "When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. REMEMBER THAT YOU CAN TAKE ONLY ONE REACTION PER ROUND"

2) Pg. 195 states, "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your REACTION to make one melee attack against the provoking creature."

3) On Pg. 190 under Reactions it states again that, "When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn..."

So as I understand it, no one will ever get three sneak attacks in one round. Perhaps three attacks - many ways to do that - but never three sneak attacks which require you to act on three separate turns. RAW provides you to operate on YOUR turn and on ONE other turn with your reaction of which you only get to use once. Again, I may have overlooked something but the rules seem pretty clear about this one to me.

 

[jgsugden]

I still do not see how any rogue will ever get three sneak attacks in one round. It is true that a "very rare" Scimitar of Speed will allow use of a bonus action to attack without the use of your action thus allowing for a ready action but I am not sure how many rogues have this item. But with or without this very rare item the rogue will still have to settle for only two sneak attack damages. One on the rogues turn and one with the use of his/her reaction on someone else turn.
....
So as I understand it, no one will ever get three sneak attacks in one round. Perhaps three attacks - many ways to do that - but never three sneak attacks which require you to act on three separate turns. RAW provides you to operate on YOUR turn and on ONE other turn with your reaction of which you only get to use once. Again, I may have overlooked something but the rules seem pretty clear about this one to me.

You missed the reference to the optional Mark rules from the DMG. Read those. In a game using those rules, it is possible to get three as I discussed. I'm sure there are/will be others, but that is at least one.

 

[Quartz]

I still do not see how any rogue will ever get three sneak attacks in one round.

The rogue gets Sneak Attack on her main attack and a reaction attack, but also on a possible bonus attack as long as that bonus attack is not on her turn. I do note that the rules for Sneak Attack are quite explicit in being once per turn, so even if Hasted or Action Surged, only one of those 'main sequence' attacks gets the SA bonus.

How the rogue gets that bonus attack is another matter.

 

[Athinar]

Okay - question. We all agree that a rapier is a melee weapon, right? So... can my rogue throw it as an improvised thrown weapon? I think I should be allowed to do this. Now the big question is does the fact that I threw this weapon and am making a ranged attack make my rapier become a thrown weapon = ranged weapon = sneak attack damage?

I don't think just because you can throw a melee weapon it turns into a "ranged weapon"

And what about a lance? I can strike a target from 10' range and not be hit back. Does this also become a "ranged" attack because I am striking from range?

The game is fun and I encourage all DM's to do what makes sense to them. No two tables will have the exact same rules in play...

If the Melee Weapon has the Property Range and has the (Range XX/XXX) in it list then it can be used as both a Melee and Range weapon and if it does a d6 or less then it can be used to "Sneak Attack"

Does an "improvised Weapon" have the Property of Thrown; No, No Sneak Attack

Lance: Reach, Not Thrown, No Sneak Attack

Longbow and Heavy Crossbow are "Range" does not have the d6 limit, only Melee Weapons with the Property "Thrown" have the D6 limit

"No two tables will have the exact same rules in play"; but they should come close

Thanks Big Mike (Mr. Crawford did not shot this down from 2014 so it has to be right otherwise Mr. Crawford would have written something)

 

[airwalkrr]

so the new Sneak Attack damage Ranges are:

Dart - out to 60 feet
Short bow - out to 320 feet
Sling - out to 120 feet
Long bow - out to 600 feet
Ballista - out to 480 feet
Cannon - out to 2400 feet
Mangonel - out to 800 feet
Trebuchet - out to 1200 feet

Man I would love to hear the description of how someone gets a sneak attack with a trebuchet.

 

[Paraxis]

Man I would love to hear the description of how someone gets a sneak attack with a trebuchet.

From the players handbook, a weapon is either melee or ranged.

A trebuchet is obviously not a melee weapon, therefore it must be a ranged weapon.

A sneak attack must be made with a ranged weapon or a weapon with the finesse quality.

Now, not all "ranged weapon attacks" which all siege weapons are listed as doing are ranged weapons. See the handaxe as it can be used to make a ranged weapon attack but it is not a ranged weapon. So maybe siege weapons are another group of weapons outside of the melee/ranged categories since they appear in the DMG, but that is never spelled out clearly. So maybe you can make sneak attacks with siege weapons.

 

[guachi]

We had our Tuesday Night Game and all 9 of us agreed that melee weapon with the Thrown Property can be used with the sneak attack when thrown and that this website is full of Trolls

Then the nine of you are either very poor at reading and understanding the RAW of 5th edition or you do understand the rules and are making a house rule. Your comments indicate the nine of you fall into the former category.

Multiple people have explained to you using actual quotes from the rule book as to why you are wrong and you reply with insults. Go away.

 

[guachi]

I still do not see how any rogue will ever get three sneak attacks in one round. It is true that a "very rare" Scimitar of Speed will allow use of a bonus action to attack without the use of your action thus allowing for a ready action but I am not sure how many rogues have this item. But with or without this very rare item the rogue will still have to settle for only two sneak attack damages. One on the rogues turn and one with the use of his/her reaction on someone else turn.

1) Pg. 193 states "When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. REMEMBER THAT YOU CAN TAKE ONLY ONE REACTION PER ROUND"

2) Pg. 195 states, "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your REACTION to make one melee attack against the provoking creature."

3) On Pg. 190 under Reactions it states again that, "When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn..."

So as I understand it, no one will ever get three sneak attacks in one round. Perhaps three attacks - many ways to do that - but never three sneak attacks which require you to act on three separate turns. RAW provides you to operate on YOUR turn and on ONE other turn with your reaction of which you only get to use once. Again, I may have overlooked something but the rules seem pretty clear about this one to me.

Hight level thief ability grants two turns for the rogue (on first round of combat, I believe) and then he could get another sneak attack with a reaction on another player's turn.

And to Quartz - you can only use a bonus action on your turn so you couldn't use a bonus action to get a sneak attack on another player's turn.

 

[guachi]

If the Melee Weapon has the Property Range and has the (Range XX/XXX) in it list then it can be used as both a Melee and Range weapon and if it does a d6 or less then it can be used to "Sneak Attack"

Does an "improvised Weapon" have the Property of Thrown; No, No Sneak Attack

Lance: Reach, Not Thrown, No Sneak Attack

Longbow and Heavy Crossbow are "Range" does not have the d6 limit, only Melee Weapons with the Property "Thrown" have the D6 limit

"No two tables will have the exact same rules in play"; but they should come close

Thanks Big Mike (Mr. Crawford did not shot this down from 2014 so it has to be right otherwise Mr. Crawford would have written something)

Range is not a property of weapons. A weapon can't be both a melee and range weapon as has been pointed out to you multiple times using actual quotes from the rules. Do you have any actual quotes from the rules to back up your (baseless) assertion that a weapon can be both a ranged and melee weapon. You can't as no such rule actually exists.

There is no "d6 limit" rule that you've invented out of thin air. If such a rule exists, please provide a page number.

For the umpteenth time, a weapon is EITHER melee OR ranged. It can't be both. It's right there in the rules. So what is a hand axe. Is it ranged or melee? You only get one choice. My book lists it under the "melee" section. What does your PHB say?

There is no need for Crawford to "shot this down" in a RAW ruling. By RAW, it's plainly obvious (or it should be) that a melee weapon (which can't simultaneously be a ranged weapon) with the thrown property but not the finesse property can't be used for a sneak attack. It isn't a ranged weapon (as it's a melee weapon and it can't be both) and it isn't finesse (as it lacks the finesse property).