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D&D 5E Idea a Redemption Mod for Infernal Warmachines in BG: DiA

Okay so the whole using soul coins to power Infernal Warmachines it creeper the crap out of me and that is not easy as I have an extremely dark and twisted imagination, because once I made the connection between damned innocent children in Waterdeep: Dragonheist and Soul Coins, the idea of tossing what could be the soul of some 5 year old child who wants their teddy bear into a Unholy furnace that slowly and agonizing burns their soul to obvilion makes me want to puke. Give me Ravenlofts Mummies, serial killers, vampires, werewolves, ghosts, fiends, hags, Skull Lords, cannibals, and twisted perverts over that any day of the weak.

So inspired by Lucifer the TV show I came with the idea of a Redemption mod for Infernal Warmachines, instead of being fueled by burning up soul coins, they are modified by redeeming the soul in the soul coin via spark of holy light.

See the idea is you get the mod by casting Hollow in the Furnance which redeems that Warmachine, replacing the furnace, with a divine radiance power core, which burns away the sin on a soul, not the soul itself until its clean and released to the Celestial afterlife of the God that the Divine Radiant Power Core was dedicated to.

You could even have mods that draw upon the Divine Radiant Power Core Mod, like a Halo Weapon that blasts attackers that ram you Redeemed Warmachine, and an Aura of Peace that has a chance of charming attackers, and Holy Water Canon that blasts enemies at range with holy water.

Thoughts?
 

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Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
It's interesting, but I think the purpose of the soul coin furnace is to force the players to make choices that test their morality. Are they willing to burn away a few souls to save the city, or will they take the harder route because the ends do not justify the means? It also seems like magic like Hallow wouldn't function as effectively because of how corrupted the entire plane is. And then there's the question whether burning away one's sins produces any energy that could power a warmachine, or if it can if the replacement fuel is sufficient.

And then there are other questions, like can sin just be burned away? If you had a coin that contained the soul of a mass murderer, is redemption in this way even possible? Can sin be burned away without intention or effort by the sinner? It raises a lot more philosophical questions regarding the concept of redemption and sin.

Not saying your idea isn't sound or couldn't work. I mean it's your game after all, and you should make up whatever rules makes the game enjoyable. But I think considering these implications and finding ways of addressing them in your game will make the concept stronger and enhance the efforts available to the players to keep them on the side of good.
 

It's interesting, but I think the purpose of the soul coin furnace is to force the players to make choices that test their morality. Are they willing to burn away a few souls to save the city, or will they take the harder route because the ends do not justify the means? It also seems like magic like Hallow wouldn't function as effectively because of how corrupted the entire plane is. And then there's the question whether burning away one's sins produces any energy that could power a warmachine, or if it can if the replacement fuel is sufficient.

And then there are other questions, like can sin just be burned away? If you had a coin that contained the soul of a mass murderer, is redemption in this way even possible? Can sin be burned away without intention or effort by the sinner? It raises a lot more philosophical questions regarding the concept of redemption and sin.

Not saying your idea isn't sound or couldn't work. I mean it's your game after all, and you should make up whatever rules makes the game enjoyable. But I think considering these implications and finding ways of addressing them in your game will make the concept stronger and enhance the efforts available to the players to keep them on the side of good.

Honestly it's a Forgotten Realms game and if I wanted to be rail roaded into evil, I'd play Ravenloft.

I get the basic idea of the moral dilemma, it just that of you play good then you lost out on the most fun part of the Avernus experience which makes the game unfun.

As for how does it burn off sin, it creates dreams in the soul where the soul deals with its issues, with each sin dealt with thus way releasing holy energy.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
After the first time we used it - and found out what it did - we were so utterly repulsed we never used it again. We downplayed an entire aspect of the adventure because it was too horrific for the players, until the DM just started giving us the regeneration and boosts without soul coins realizing it was a step to far. That we'd made our morale choice, and he descided that he didn't want to penalize our fun for that choice.

But this - this is an even better solution. It's the characters taking control of that and turning it. We had no cleric, and I'm not sure if we would have thought of this even if we had, but it is elegant and redemptive of not just the souls in the coins, but those who would feed them into the Infernal Celestial War Machine.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
I'd make it possible to have redeemed warmachines, but the engine must first be bound to the spirit of a willing redeemed fiend...which is hard to find.

Or, create a market where they sell ''clean energy'', meaning they only sell the soul coins of the wort, unforgivable sinners, verified by Zone of Truth or Speak with Dead, giving you a better fuel efficiency; you only consume 1 soul coins per 1000 miles!
 

After the first time we used it - and found out what it did - we were so utterly repulsed we never used it again. We downplayed an entire aspect of the adventure because it was too horrific for the players, until the DM just started giving us the regeneration and boosts without soul coins realizing it was a step to far.

But this - this is an even better solution. It's the characters taking control of that and turning it. We had no cleric, and I'm not sure if we would have thought of this even if we had, but it is elegant and redemptive of not just the souls in the coins, but those who would feed them into the Infernal Celestial War Machine.

Exactly. The Warmachines are too cool an idea to lose to a moral dilemma.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
I'd make it possible to have redeemed warmachines, but the engine must first be bound to the spirit of a willing redeemed fiend...which is hard to find.

Or, create a market where they sell ''clean energy'', meaning they only sell the soul coins of the wort, unforgivable sinners, verified by Zone of Truth or Speak with Dead, giving you a better fuel efficiency; you only consume 1 soul coins per 1000 miles!
Yes! I think this would make way more sense. Rather than burning away the sins of the damned, the warmachine is bound with a willing soul similar to the elemental ships in Eberron. It gives the soul a chance to be redeemed through their actions and willingness to help the party. I think this and may use it in the Descent into Avernus game I'm running.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Exactly. The Warmachines are too cool an idea to lose to a moral dilemma.
It's like "Here is this tough morale quandry. What, you decided to be good and upstanding? Well, we're going to punish you for it until you give in."

Yes, I get ratchetting up the tension to slip and do bad, but to take what is such a unique and fun part of that adventure and turn it off for doing the right thing is not the play I want to engender.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Honestly it's a Forgotten Realms game and if I wanted to be rail roaded into evil, I'd play Ravenloft.

I get the basic idea of the moral dilemma, it just that of you play good then you lost out on the most fun part of the Avernus experience which makes the game unfun.

As for how does it burn off sin, it creates dreams in the soul where the soul deals with its issues, with each sin dealt with thus way releasing holy energy.
I love that.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Honestly, you are playing in Hell, and if you don't play the corruption of hell on good souls, you are missing out on a lot of possibilities. The overall adventure is full of it, between infernal weapons, soul coins, all the devils wanting to offer you contract. Playing good in Hell should be a challenge, you should have to make tough choices, and it does not mean that you cannot be redeemed, as it is in a sense the crux of the whole adventure.

Moreover, the souls in the coins are evil, like all the souls which are drawn to hell anyway. I don't think that the upper planes would offer these souls a redemption by doing nothing, nor do I think that they have any cosmic right to do so. Remember that Asmodeus has been given the right to tempt people to evil so that he can field armies in the blood war and contain the forces of the Abyss. And finally, on this point, do you think the evil soul would accept redemption if it was forced on them ? Some might seize it as an opportunity not to be destroyed, but having done nothing to be redeemed, they would still be evil.

Also, don't you think that a Celestial Engine would draw evil creatures to you in an instant ? This is their plane after all, and even Zariel failed to invade it.

As for not punishing the characters for being good, there are other ways to do this, in particular through allies and other opportunities. In our game, there is in particular Burney at the Emporium, and a link to the Infinite Staircase and less evil partnerships. And the more evil characters in the group have restricted access to this.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Honestly, you are playing in Hell, and if you don't play the corruption of hell on good souls, you are missing out on a lot of possibilities. The overall adventure is full of it, between infernal weapons, soul coins, all the devils wanting to offer you contract. Playing good in Hell should be a challenge, you should have to make tough choices, and it does not mean that you cannot be redeemed, as it is in a sense the crux of the whole adventure.

Absolutely.

Which does not invalidate that effectively shutting down a large and unique part of the adventure if you don't give in is bad adventure design.

Making it such that if you give in things are easier for you, tempt you along that path - absolutely. But without the ability to regenerate HPs and other bennies it basically takes a chunk of adventure material and says "you won't get to play with this". And that's not okay.

Temptation as a "this is easier / better" is one thing. Temptation that is a barrier to a unique recurring experience in the module is another. Temptation for the character should not get in the way of enjoyment for the player.
 

Bolares

Hero
Okay so the whole using soul coins to power Infernal Warmachines it creeper the crap out of me and that is not easy as I have an extremely dark and twisted imagination, because once I made the connection between damned innocent children in Waterdeep: Dragonheist and Soul Coins, the idea of tossing what could be the soul of some 5 year old child who wants their teddy bear into a Unholy furnace that slowly and agonizing burns their soul to obvilion makes me want to puke. Give me Ravenlofts Mummies, serial killers, vampires, werewolves, ghosts, fiends, hags, Skull Lords, cannibals, and twisted perverts over that any day of the weak.

So inspired by Lucifer the TV show I came with the idea of a Redemption mod for Infernal Warmachines, instead of being fueled by burning up soul coins, they are modified by redeeming the soul in the soul coin via spark of holy light.

See the idea is you get the mod by casting Hollow in the Furnance which redeems that Warmachine, replacing the furnace, with a divine radiance power core, which burns away the sin on a soul, not the soul itself until its clean and released to the Celestial afterlife of the God that the Divine Radiant Power Core was dedicated to.

You could even have mods that draw upon the Divine Radiant Power Core Mod, like a Halo Weapon that blasts attackers that ram you Redeemed Warmachine, and an Aura of Peace that has a chance of charming attackers, and Holy Water Canon that blasts enemies at range with holy water.

Thoughts?
I really like this idea. I like it even more if used stealthly on Infernal Machines being used by inhabitants of Avernus. The thought of them unknowingly redeeming sould while going around amuses me.
 

Bolares

Hero
Honestly, you are playing in Hell, and if you don't play the corruption of hell on good souls, you are missing out on a lot of possibilities. The overall adventure is full of it, between infernal weapons, soul coins, all the devils wanting to offer you contract. Playing good in Hell should be a challenge, you should have to make tough choices, and it does not mean that you cannot be redeemed, as it is in a sense the crux of the whole adventure.
I agree that an adventure in Avernus should test your morality, and try to make you slip. BUT, I think this is to much of a leap. it goes right to "burn away the soul of a person forever if you want to ride this cool car". It's not making you slip, it's asking you to dive of a cliff. I'd prefer gradual temptation and subtle acts of evil. This reminds me of Episode 3 when anakin imediatelly goes to murdering children after saving palpatine...
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Absolutely.

Which does not invalidate that effectively shutting down a large and unique part of the adventure if you don't give in is bad adventure design.

Honestly, I don't think anything shuts down that part of the adventure. Note that in general soul coins contain evil souls, damned for all eternity and condemned to the torments of hell. If, by chance, it's not an evil soul, you can always release it. But assuming that you decide to use an evil soul, you can always use it to power a machine and release it before it is consumed. The soul is just transferred from the coin into the furnace, and there is no reason the same process cannot be used to release a soul from a furnace as from a soul coin (remove curse for example).

Making it such that if you give in things are easier for you, tempt you along that path - absolutely. But without the ability to regenerate HPs and other bennies it basically takes a chunk of adventure material and says "you won't get to play with this". And that's not okay.

I'm not sure how regenerating HP comes into this ?

Temptation as a "this is easier / better" is one thing. Temptation that is a barrier to a unique recurring experience in the module is another. Temptation for the character should not get in the way of enjoyment for the player.

See above, I don't see a hard barrier there.
I agree that an adventure in Avernus should test your morality, and try to make you slip. BUT, I think this is to much of a leap. it goes right to "burn away the soul of a person forever if you want to ride this cool car".

Not necessarily, see above.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Honestly, I don't think anything shuts down that part of the adventure. Note that in general soul coins contain evil souls, damned for all eternity and condemned to the torments of hell. If, by chance, it's not an evil soul, you can always release it. But assuming that you decide to use an evil soul, you can always use it to power a machine and release it before it is consumed. The soul is just transferred from the coin into the furnace, and there is no reason the same process cannot be used to release a soul from a furnace as from a soul coin (remove curse for example).



I'm not sure how regenerating HP comes into this ?



See above, I don't see a hard barrier there.


Not necessarily, see above.
Got it - you don't see destroying a soul for all time instead of allowing it to have a chance to serve for it's sins and have a chance at redemption as a hard barrier. We'll just have to disagree there.

Regenerating HP - the soul coins were the only way to fix the Infernal War Machines when you were on the go. At least in our playthrough. And without that you quickly got shut down - a hard barrier.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Got it - you don't see destroying a soul for all time instead of allowing it to have a chance to serve for it's sins and have a chance at redemption as a hard barrier. We'll just have to disagree there.

Once more, nothing says that you have to destroy them for all time even if you are using them.

Regenerating HP - the soul coins were the only way to fix the Infernal War Machines when you were on the go. At least in our playthrough. And without that you quickly got shut down - a hard barrier.

I'm not sure why it was implemented that way in your campaign. About repairing, the module is quite forgiving and does not require Soul Coins. And even if you are paying for repairs using Soul Coins, it's not destroying a soul.

After that, Soul Coins are used as currency in Hell, but once more you don't have to buy them. Making deals with devils is evil in any case, if you want to be really pure.
 

Bolares

Hero
Uhhh, the soul is destroyed when all charges in the coin are used....


"An infernal war machine's furnace consumes a soul coin instantly, expending all the coin's remaining charges at once and destroying the coin in the process. The soul trapped in the coin becomes trapped in the furnace instead, powering the infernal war machine for a duration determined by how many charges the soul coin had when it was consumed: 1 charge, 24 hours; 2 charges, 48 hours; 3 charges, 72 hours. If it's still trapped in the furnace when this duration ends, the soul is destroyed. Not even divine intervention can restore a soul destroyed in this manner."
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Uhhh, the soul is destroyed when all charges in the coin are used....

Then don't use all the charges, bargain with the soul for early release.

"An infernal war machine's furnace consumes a soul coin instantly, expending all the coin's remaining charges at once and destroying the coin in the process. The soul trapped in the coin becomes trapped in the furnace instead, powering the infernal war machine for a duration determined by how many charges the soul coin had when it was consumed: 1 charge, 24 hours; 2 charges, 48 hours; 3 charges, 72 hours. If it's still trapped in the furnace when this duration ends, the soul is destroyed. Not even divine intervention can restore a soul destroyed in this manner."

Then, again, don't use the soul to exhaustion in your furnace. Since a Remove curse frees a soul from a soul coin, it should free it as well from a furnace. Make him suffer as he should powering the machine for a while, then release him without destroying the soul.
 

Bolares

Hero
Then don't use all the charges, bargain with the soul for early release.
I'm talking about the war machine. The coin is instantly consumed, and then after a variable amount of time the souls is destroyed. Our point stands. Using war machines is destroying souls.

Then, again, don't use the soul to exhaustion in your furnace. Since a Remove curse frees a soul from a soul coin, it should free it as well from a furnace. Make him suffer as he should powering the machine for a while, then release him without destroying the soul
Nothing says you can remove curse on the furnace. The text clearly states that after X amount of time the soul is consumed.

I disagree that rules that aply to coins apply to furnaces. As using all charges in a coin free a soul, while using all charges in a furnace destroys the soul. Clearly they use different rules. you can house rule that you can remove curse on a furnace to free a soul, but that is not RAW. So, I think our point that the adventure is really brutal in this point still stands IMHO.
 
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Lyxen

Great Old One
I'm talking about the war machine. The coin is instantly consumed, and then after a variable amount of time the souls is destroyed. Our point stands. Using war machines is destroying souls.

No, you are reading too much into the description: "The soul trapped in the coin becomes trapped in the furnace instead."

Nothing says you can remove curse on the furnace.

If it works on the coin, why does it not work on the furnace, it's just trapped in another place with a time limit instead of a charge limit.

I disagree that rules that aply to coins apply to furnaces. As using all charges in a coin free a soul, while using all charges in a furnace destroys the soul. Clearly they use different rules. you can house rule that you can remove curse on a furnace to free a soul, but that is not RAW. So, I think our point that the adventure is really brutal in this point still stands IMHO.

You seem determined to make it a blocking point to prove that it is a bad design, when first off it can be read in another way and second the fix, if need be, is extremely simple and does not require changing fundamentals about the way Hell should work.
 

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