D&D General Identity of Monsters Post-Alignment (+)

[Faolyn]

No idea why you bring real world references into it.
Kobolds being cowardly alone and relying on numbers was and still is one of their defining traits over all editions which had nothing to do with alignment.
If you remove every negative (and why stop just with the negative ones?) characteristic for everyone because at some point something similar was used as an insult in the real world you end up with bland and generic races as the "it could be a lie" can be used about every defining trait for everyone.

How does removing stereotypes make a people bland?

Like, if kobolds, which are tiny, squishy creatures that are preyed upon by almost everything else, run away when alone and rely on traps around their home... how is that cowardly? That seems smart to me.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Were kobolds even actually cowardly until that stupid 'simper and whine' or whatever power came out? Or was that a description applied to them for being pretty much the only species who understand how gravity and springs work and can kick everyone's asses without having to put themselves in danger for no good reason?

 

[Faolyn]

Were kobolds even actually cowardly until that stupid 'simper and whine' or whatever power came out? Or was that a description applied to them for being pretty much the only species who understand how gravity and springs work and can kick everyone's asses without having to put themselves in danger for no good reason?

2e described them as cowardly and said these half-hit die humanoids liked to attack with "overwhelming odds or trickery" rather than one-on-one in a fair fight against a creature that was likely to have many more hp than they do.

 

[RealAlHazred]

I was curious so I checked the AD&D 1st edition Monster Manual: "The society of these creatures is tribal with war bands based on gens. The stronger tribes rule weaker ones... If they are in bright sunlight they have a lesser chance to fight well (-1 from dice rolls to hit opponents)... Kobolds hate most other life, delighting in killing and torture. They particularly hate such creatures as brownies, pixies, sprites and gnomes. They war continually with the latter, and will attack them on sight." Nothing about cowardice, plenty of malice.

I went back to Book 2: Monsters and Treasure: "KOBOLDS: Treat these monsters as if they were Goblins except [cut hit points stuff]...

GOBLINS: These small monsters are as described in CHAINMAIL. They see well in darkness or dim light, but when they are subjected to full daylight they subtract –1 from their attack and morale dice. They attack dwarves on sight..." Still nothing about cowardice.

 

[Ixal]

How does removing stereotypes make a people bland?

Like, if kobolds, which are tiny, squishy creatures that are preyed upon by almost everything else, run away when alone and rely on traps around their home... how is that cowardly? That seems smart to me.

To the kobolds this is smart.
To everyone who is used to squish kobolds it looks cowardly.
And as the original topic were mercenaries, when they tend to run unless they have superior numbers they are not very good mercenaries (and certainly not very well paid ones).

How does that make them bland? What is the difference between kobolds and gnomes when you remove all stereotypes and everything "could be a lie"? Except for their looks nothing, despite being two entirely different species.

 

[Faolyn]

To the kobolds this is smart.
To everyone who is used to squish kobolds it looks cowardly.

Which was Stormonu's point--the idea that kobolds are cowardly and incompetent isn't true. It's just that other people take their actions as cowardly and incompetent.

I mean, you have a well-armed and -armored fighter against a much weaker kobold who has sub-part equipment. Pick on someone your own size, fighter-person!

And as the original topic were mercenaries, when they tend to run unless they have superior numbers they are not very good mercenaries (and certainly not very well paid ones).

Well, maybe they wouldn't run if they were paid better. Tiny mercenaries deserve a higher minimum wage!

How does that make them bland? What is the difference between kobolds and gnomes when you remove all stereotypes and everything "could be a lie"? Except for their looks nothing, despite being two entirely different species.

Or you can give them different cultures, different social mores, different lifestyles, different diets, different habitats... You don't even need to go far to find differences. Try this: kobolds lay eggs. All eggs are stuck together, with members of a clutch treating each other as siblings. Sounds like a decent start, yes? If you want kobolds to be less human and more reptilian in their outlook, you could say that kobolds are r-strategists and adults don't care much about the clutch; the precocial siblings have to rely on each other, not their elders, to survive. The elders don't abandon their eggs like, say, sea turtles do, but neither do they really provide care for them.

Contrast that to gnomes, which almost certainly have a human-like social structure of parents, or perhaps an extended family, raising a small number of children with care.

And from this difference, you can then figure out how that would affect their entire society.

 

[Ixal]

Or you can give them different cultures, different social mores, different lifestyles, different diets, different habitats...

All of this are stereotypes and thus "can be a lie".

 

[Faolyn]

All of this are stereotypes and thus "can be a lie".

Er, no. No, they're not. And way to ignore everything else I wrote, which shows how you can easily differentiate gnomes from kobolds.

Try looking at kobolds (or other species of your choice) from a neutral, anthropological, worldbuilding viewpoint, and then deciding what people in the world think about them. Because those can be very different things. Example: I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider a rabbit or deer to be cowardly for running away from perceived danger. So, from an anthropological viewpoint, I wouldn't consider a kobold to be cowardly; like rabbits and deer, they're a prey species (and like those two, they can fight if necessary--it's just that running away is better). A knight who thinks that fighting someone in 1v1 combat is honorable, even if the opponent is extremely weak and armed with a rusty knife, would view the kobold as a coward, though.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Which was Stormonu's point--the idea that kobolds are cowardly and incompetent isn't true. It's just that other people take their actions as cowardly and incompetent.

I mean, you have a well-armed and -armored fighter against a much weaker kobold who has sub-part equipment. Pick on someone your own size, fighter-person!


Well, maybe they wouldn't run if they were paid better. Tiny mercenaries deserve a higher minimum wage!


Or you can give them different cultures, different social mores, different lifestyles, different diets, different habitats... You don't even need to go far to find differences. Try this: kobolds lay eggs. All eggs are stuck together, with members of a clutch treating each other as siblings. Sounds like a decent start, yes? If you want kobolds to be less human and more reptilian in their outlook, you could say that kobolds are r-strategists and adults don't care much about the clutch; the precocial siblings have to rely on each other, not their elders, to survive. The elders don't abandon their eggs like, say, sea turtles do, but neither do they really provide care for them.

Contrast that to gnomes, which almost certainly have a human-like social structure of parents, or perhaps an extended family, raising a small number of children with care.

And from this difference, you can then figure out how that would affect their entire society.

This thread has inspired me to flesh out in more detail something I've been working on for a while now anyway. Your post here is very much in alignment with the direction I'm going in how to keep humanoids interesting and unique, outside of any alignment or lack there of. It's a big blog post, so I won't cut and paste everything here:

https://izegrimcreations.com/f/customized-creatures

 

[Voadam]

Hamunaptra from Green Ronin is an Egyptian 3.5 setting with civilized gnolls as jackal headed death associated children of Anubis and one of the main player races instead of primitive savage hyena headed monsters.

SpirosBlaak was a 3.5 setting which had the mentors, psionic good guys with a history of conquest from the underdark.

"The mentors are a people who work to educate other races, and guide them towards enlightenment, hence the name given their race. However, the mentors of the present are far different from those of the past. Once, these gray humanoids wanted little else but to destroy and conquer. Boiling up from their subterranean world, armed with powerful and daunting psychic powers, they could level entire nations, bringing entire races to heel under their might.
However, eventually they learned. They learned conquest could bring them nothing but instability, more wars, more deaths. In time, they abandoned their belligerent ways in favor of the Truth. They left their tunnels of eternal darkness, entering the world of the surface to live alongside those on whom they once had preyed."

Their written physical description is full on gray alien but then the one picture they give them is a picture of a psionic creature with face tentacles and giant collar.

which makes me think reformed mind flayers.

The fact that they are naturally telepathic and have standing hatred of aboleth and drow tends to reinforce that impression for me.