Troy Denning likes to get value from his characters- Avner's back (sort of- he's dead) from the Twilight Giants Trilogy in Crucible also.
Cheers Goonalan
D&D General I'm reading the Forgotten Realms Novels- #202 The Howling Delve by Jaleigh Johnson (Dungeons 2)
- Thread starter Goonalan
- Start date
Troy Denning likes to get value from his characters- Avner's back (sort of- he's dead) from the Twilight Giants Trilogy in Crucible also.
Cheers Goonalan
Dire Bare
Legend
I remember that! I remember getting excited for Shores of Dusk (by Mark Anthony), and then . . . . nothing. It's interesting to get some of the behind-the-scenes info on what went down.
I think it's natural for authors to want as much creative control over their characters as possible, however . . . . when you do "work-for-hire" as a writer contributing to a shared world, you DON'T own your own characters. To get precious about it is ridiculous, IMO. Of course when your contributions are as popular as the "dark elf" is to the Realms, that gives you a bit of clout when wrangling with the editors (or, it should). And good editors will give their prize authors as much creative freedom and "ownership" as possible, to get the best results! Sounds like Thomsen wasn't a very good line manager and did a lot of damage during his time at TSR.
It won't happen (and probably shouldn't), but I've always wanted WotC to release Shores of Dusk digitally as a non-canon Dark Elf story. It's my understanding the novel was fully completed and ready to go . . . . I wonder if it's still sitting on somebody's hard drive at WotC, or if Anthony still has his manuscript? I'm just so curious about that story!
Some people liked Brian. I was not one of them. His management of the book line and the book department directly led to me parting ways with TSR as a writer and editor in 1994.
Shores of Dusk was, I believe, finished and ready for the printer when the project was killed. Mark Anthony might have his drafts, but may not have the final, edited copy; he was paid a kill fee for the book and probably signed away any rights to publication. Wizards may have files, but it is also possible that the edited text was not saved. TSR was terrible about keeping records and Wizards has some gaping holes in their company archives. In any case, it's unlikely the book will ever see print so long as Bob Salvatore is still writing Drizzt. I'm not privy to the terms of the agreement, but it may have precluded the book ever seeing print.
If you want a glimpse into the alternate Drizzt, there's Realms of the Underdark, which contains no new Salvatore. (Including the Passage to Dawn preview was a way to get his name on the cover, even though he did not contribute to the book.) Mark Anthony does the Drizzt story in that one. As with Once Around the Realms, the real-world machinations show through in Realms of the Underdark if you know the backstory--the book as a whole is all about Brian showing Bob that the Underdark and drow in the Realms will go on at TSR without him. (The four Realms anthologies I had pitched as line editor were Valor, Infamy, Magic, and Mystery. I left before Magic. Mystery did not end up on the schedule until after the WotC buyout.)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
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#043 Shadows of Doom by Ed Greenwood (Shadow of the Avatar 1)
Read 8/1/20 to 11/1/20
Right then, it took me a while to get going with this one, I picked it up on the third day of reading and I was only on page 38... which is not a good sign. But... but then I read the rest of the book in a flash, and there seemed to be a reason for that.
The first 50 or so pages (and the last 50) could almost be from somewhere else. It's a slow start to Ed Greenwood/Elminster's take on the Time of Troubles (which this book isn't)- the gods are out their heaven's and stalking the land, magic is fading or else gone wild, and Elminster is having to carry a great big chunk of Mystra's load (her raw power).
So, it begins with much oddness, let me explain-
1) Sexuality, every woman we meet is somehow attracted (in some way) to the tall and thin Mr. Mage that is Elminster. More than that the lady knight (Storm) is wont to do her weapon training sans any upper body protection, or indeed sans anything on her upper body at all- au natural. She spars with our pair of Harper heroes and we are treated to a flurry of innuendo, 'swords gripped tight in hand', 'twin orbs' etc. that kind of thing. There's a lot of this, and much kissing throughout, and waking to find the millennial mage has thrown an arm over his sleeping female companion. It's not massively inappropriate just more than a little jarring (at times), and slightly creepy at other times.
2) Ego, everyone- and I mean everyone from Mystra down is happy to queue around the block to tell us how great Elminster is, and that he's the man, the one, the grand fromage. It gets a little grating after a while, Elminster doesn't say this kind of thing, although there's a little hubris here and there, but Mr Greenwood is keen to let us know how great his mage is- goddesses, and young beautiful warrior knights, gather to mourn (light candles and sway hypnotically) when Elminster goes missing. It's a bit...
3) Emotional, everyone for a bit (at the start) is 'cast down to the darkest place, where feint hope fear not to tread', or some such. Elminster goes for a walk in the woods, and soon after is reported missing. Even the five year old little girl he meets in the woods is left low by the great mage's words and passing. It's all a bit teenage angsty, with the dark cubby-holes of the mind probed for shadows prior to the tears and the forlorn wailing.
So, there's a lot of this in the first fifty or so pages, too much- we get it. Elminster is the rock star mage that all women (of all ages) want to be with, he's better than the gods because he's so... sexy? Cool? Powerful? He's so... ELMINSTER!
Then all that stops, or at least just goes away- Elminster heads off in to the woods, now that his magic is bust, and the next thing you know he and Sharn (female Knight of Myth Drannor- a looker, of course) find a gate, then some Zhent, and then they go through the gate and find a lot more Zhent. Suddenly we're in the High Dales and the Zhent have usurped power there, the people are enslaved and/or mostly broken. Thank Elminster that Elminster has arrived to save the day.
Oh, and the plot- such as it is, has at last turned up.
It seems so random, sure we get a cut scene earlier in which Manshoon gurns at some of his Beholder chums as the head of the Zhentarim learns that magic has gone all awry, but the troubles in High Dale seem totally disconnected from the Time of Troubles, and Elminster's arrival unplanned, its all a bit random.
That said the next 200+ pages race by, Elminster & Sharn- followed in to action by the sword-practicing Harper heroes conjure not spells but revolution. There's a pile of great action here, nice stories- and some great insights in to the lives of the down-trodden, and for that matter the machinations of the Black Network petty tyrants. Great stuff, the battle for High Castle is fantastic- Greenwood has a way with these kinds of confrontations, it's visceral and terrible- folk are sick, and scream. Not because they're dying or being slaughtered, but because they're terrified and are being forced to fight- to kill, it's a lot better than many of the other novels in this regard. The bad things that the good people have to do in order to achieve the end goal- the guilt that haunts them... again, all great.
Then there's another odd section at the end, the fight is over in High Dale and the heroes have lead the common folk to victory- suddenly we're whisked away to Spellgard, and soon after a series of 'final' confrontations with a succession of Zhent magelings, culminating in the arrival of the big Kahuna. Manshoon himself turns up for the final showdown- it's all very exciting (which makes it much easier to ignore all the continued kissing, flattery and the now slightly less creepy sexual chemistry on display) the intro and the action with the (sexy- in an undead sorta way) female Archlich is particularly good.
But, save for the odd bit of failed magic- and Elminster's failure to hurl spells there's little made of the Time of Troubles, and the Zhent's taking of High Dale, and the latter attacks in Spellgard, all seem remarkably disconnected.
If you asked me what was the book about, I'd answer you with one word- Elminster.
It's good, great in places- but a day later and I still can't make the plot sit right in my head- Elminster just wandered in to the woods (to hide his broken magic) and ends up leading a revolution and defeating the head of the Zhent. No plans, no plot- the reader/writer just dives in to the battle for freedom.
Last bit- there are plenty of strong male, but mostly female, characters here- which is great, strong women in Fantasy Fiction are good, particularly back then- but they're all in various stages of enamoured with our guy. Which is less helpful for the genre/sex, I think.
Elminster himself is very cool throughout, although at times prosaic, at other times surly(-ish) and always on the look out for a little more sugar in his life. As I say, a bit- how to put it nicely- creepy. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, too sensitive- maybe it's just a rip-roaring lark in which the heroes (as always) eventually defeat the dark side.
It's odd, and there's more to come.
Last, last bit, it's also hard to read because there's a lot of High Realmsian language, Greenwood has a different word for everything- a Realmsian language which is unexhibited in almost all of the other novels, this is interesting and tiring in equal measure. On the whole I'm more positive about the use of language here, there are phrases that Elminster (and others characters) use that I will take in to my game. But, you need to get used to it, to build up a tolerance, while at the same time learning to smile wanly as another Realmsian phrase is uttered- "hence, many wonders for your seeing eyes bedeck the pages of this august and telling novel, which dipped in twilight searches for naught but the stars."
That kind of thing- makes it a bit harder to read at times, just sometimes.
Read!
Read 8/1/20 to 11/1/20
Right then, it took me a while to get going with this one, I picked it up on the third day of reading and I was only on page 38... which is not a good sign. But... but then I read the rest of the book in a flash, and there seemed to be a reason for that.
The first 50 or so pages (and the last 50) could almost be from somewhere else. It's a slow start to Ed Greenwood/Elminster's take on the Time of Troubles (which this book isn't)- the gods are out their heaven's and stalking the land, magic is fading or else gone wild, and Elminster is having to carry a great big chunk of Mystra's load (her raw power).
So, it begins with much oddness, let me explain-
1) Sexuality, every woman we meet is somehow attracted (in some way) to the tall and thin Mr. Mage that is Elminster. More than that the lady knight (Storm) is wont to do her weapon training sans any upper body protection, or indeed sans anything on her upper body at all- au natural. She spars with our pair of Harper heroes and we are treated to a flurry of innuendo, 'swords gripped tight in hand', 'twin orbs' etc. that kind of thing. There's a lot of this, and much kissing throughout, and waking to find the millennial mage has thrown an arm over his sleeping female companion. It's not massively inappropriate just more than a little jarring (at times), and slightly creepy at other times.
2) Ego, everyone- and I mean everyone from Mystra down is happy to queue around the block to tell us how great Elminster is, and that he's the man, the one, the grand fromage. It gets a little grating after a while, Elminster doesn't say this kind of thing, although there's a little hubris here and there, but Mr Greenwood is keen to let us know how great his mage is- goddesses, and young beautiful warrior knights, gather to mourn (light candles and sway hypnotically) when Elminster goes missing. It's a bit...
3) Emotional, everyone for a bit (at the start) is 'cast down to the darkest place, where feint hope fear not to tread', or some such. Elminster goes for a walk in the woods, and soon after is reported missing. Even the five year old little girl he meets in the woods is left low by the great mage's words and passing. It's all a bit teenage angsty, with the dark cubby-holes of the mind probed for shadows prior to the tears and the forlorn wailing.
So, there's a lot of this in the first fifty or so pages, too much- we get it. Elminster is the rock star mage that all women (of all ages) want to be with, he's better than the gods because he's so... sexy? Cool? Powerful? He's so... ELMINSTER!
Then all that stops, or at least just goes away- Elminster heads off in to the woods, now that his magic is bust, and the next thing you know he and Sharn (female Knight of Myth Drannor- a looker, of course) find a gate, then some Zhent, and then they go through the gate and find a lot more Zhent. Suddenly we're in the High Dales and the Zhent have usurped power there, the people are enslaved and/or mostly broken. Thank Elminster that Elminster has arrived to save the day.
Oh, and the plot- such as it is, has at last turned up.
It seems so random, sure we get a cut scene earlier in which Manshoon gurns at some of his Beholder chums as the head of the Zhentarim learns that magic has gone all awry, but the troubles in High Dale seem totally disconnected from the Time of Troubles, and Elminster's arrival unplanned, its all a bit random.
That said the next 200+ pages race by, Elminster & Sharn- followed in to action by the sword-practicing Harper heroes conjure not spells but revolution. There's a pile of great action here, nice stories- and some great insights in to the lives of the down-trodden, and for that matter the machinations of the Black Network petty tyrants. Great stuff, the battle for High Castle is fantastic- Greenwood has a way with these kinds of confrontations, it's visceral and terrible- folk are sick, and scream. Not because they're dying or being slaughtered, but because they're terrified and are being forced to fight- to kill, it's a lot better than many of the other novels in this regard. The bad things that the good people have to do in order to achieve the end goal- the guilt that haunts them... again, all great.
Then there's another odd section at the end, the fight is over in High Dale and the heroes have lead the common folk to victory- suddenly we're whisked away to Spellgard, and soon after a series of 'final' confrontations with a succession of Zhent magelings, culminating in the arrival of the big Kahuna. Manshoon himself turns up for the final showdown- it's all very exciting (which makes it much easier to ignore all the continued kissing, flattery and the now slightly less creepy sexual chemistry on display) the intro and the action with the (sexy- in an undead sorta way) female Archlich is particularly good.
But, save for the odd bit of failed magic- and Elminster's failure to hurl spells there's little made of the Time of Troubles, and the Zhent's taking of High Dale, and the latter attacks in Spellgard, all seem remarkably disconnected.
If you asked me what was the book about, I'd answer you with one word- Elminster.
It's good, great in places- but a day later and I still can't make the plot sit right in my head- Elminster just wandered in to the woods (to hide his broken magic) and ends up leading a revolution and defeating the head of the Zhent. No plans, no plot- the reader/writer just dives in to the battle for freedom.
Last bit- there are plenty of strong male, but mostly female, characters here- which is great, strong women in Fantasy Fiction are good, particularly back then- but they're all in various stages of enamoured with our guy. Which is less helpful for the genre/sex, I think.
Elminster himself is very cool throughout, although at times prosaic, at other times surly(-ish) and always on the look out for a little more sugar in his life. As I say, a bit- how to put it nicely- creepy. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, too sensitive- maybe it's just a rip-roaring lark in which the heroes (as always) eventually defeat the dark side.
It's odd, and there's more to come.
Last, last bit, it's also hard to read because there's a lot of High Realmsian language, Greenwood has a different word for everything- a Realmsian language which is unexhibited in almost all of the other novels, this is interesting and tiring in equal measure. On the whole I'm more positive about the use of language here, there are phrases that Elminster (and others characters) use that I will take in to my game. But, you need to get used to it, to build up a tolerance, while at the same time learning to smile wanly as another Realmsian phrase is uttered- "hence, many wonders for your seeing eyes bedeck the pages of this august and telling novel, which dipped in twilight searches for naught but the stars."
That kind of thing- makes it a bit harder to read at times, just sometimes.
Read!
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Hehe, I'm a sucker for any Elminster fiction.
I haven't read this trilogy in a long time, but I love the foes who are the main foes of this trilogy, and book 2 has one of my favorite scenes from FR even if many people don't like it
I'm about 100 pages in to this one, and I'll be honest I'm more than a little perplexed, and please keep in mind that I am coming from nowhere here, before I started this project the realms was a map (and nothing more) that I had seen maybe a dozen times before 5e came about.
When 5e started up then I did a little more reading on the FR Wiki in order to make sense of some of the things that appeared in the various WotC hardback modules.
So, here are my questions so far-
1) Malaugrym? I had to go and look them up (about 30 seconds ago) I had no idea (apart from the description in the text) what they were. Why pick these guys- surely they're very niche.
2) On page 50 (exactly- not a page less, not a page more) the Time of Troubles (maybe) starts- there's flashing lights and meteor like effects as the gods are sent to Faerun. If that's the case then what was going on in the previous novel. I read that thinking it was sent in the Time of Troubles, perhaps I got that wrong- perhaps it was just before, but I never spotted that.
3) So far, and I know I'm only 100 pages in but there's nothing much about the Time of Troubles- only Elminster (played by Selune), Sharn and the Harper hero pair doing pretty much what they did in the last one, only with different bad guys (mostly).
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the action- and the time spent with the crazy Malaugryms in their Shadow Castle with all the TVs switched to the Elminster channel but... I keep thinking I've missed something.
So, without telling what goes on in the next 214 pages, can you, or anyone, tell me if I've missed something.
The plot in summary is this-
It's the Time of Troubles- the time is ripe therefore the Malaugrym (& some Zhent) to kick Elminster's backside, and vice-versa- time for Elminster (et al) to do for the Malaugrym.
Have I got it right?
Cheers Goonalan
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Hehe.
That's a pretty accurate summation of events in this trilogy
In addition to this trilogy, Malaugrym show up in the first two Spellfire books as well as one of the Harpers books, Stormlight (book 14 in the series).
So it kind of depends on your reading order. I'd read Spellfire as one of my first FR books, and the Harpers series before I read the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy I think.
Hehe.
That's a pretty accurate summation of events in this trilogy
In addition to this trilogy, Malaugrym show up in the first two Spellfire books as well as one of the Harpers books, Stormlight (book 14 in the series).
So it kind of depends on your reading order. I'd read Spellfire as one of my first FR books, and the Harpers series before I read the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy I think.
The issue is the buying of the books- I looked at different ways to do this (there was another thread here prior to this one asking people to suggest the correct order to read the books)- reading all of them in publication order, reading them as a sort of time line of the Realms, but the difficulty has (and will) always be getting hold of the books.
So for example I was looking for Mortal Consequences and for about a month-and-a-half every time I checked on ebay/amazon/abe and anywhere else I could find then the book was something like £10+ postage from the states.
The most I have paid for a single book is about £8 + postage from UK (about £10 total). I'm on a budget (sorta).
Then, last week I found a copy of Mortal Consequences on ebay for £3, including postage.
So, I buy books when I can- and when they're on the list to be read soon (and reasonably priced), or if I see them and they're cheap- regardless where they come in the running order, the problem with this of course is it effects the running order dramatically.
I have lots of other examples of the above- it took me the best part of two months of intermittent searches to finally track down the Double Diamond Triangle saga without having to break the bank. There are still some novels that are proving hard to get hold of.
If you get a chance have a look back at the running order (on the first page) feel free to suggest any changes, I'm happy to take advice.
Cheers Goonalan
Scrivener of Doom
Adventurer
Ed wanted a monster potent enough to be a threat worthy of Elminster and other NPCs, but also very mysterious in the way they operate and present themselves so that they can also remind behind-the-scenes and drive intrigue.
I rather like them but they're a lot of work to stat up even in my preferred 4E.
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