Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

UK:

Hiya mate!

You finished it you say? Well formalize it and gimme a copy already!

Finished writing it - not finished typing it up yet.

I am tweaking the format a little as well, I need an additional header to do smaller titles.

The rounding errors seem to be a little problematic, but perhaps it's best you always round up, error on the side of caution, ie, round the gnoll up to 2 and bugbear up to 3.

Unfortunately that gets you into the same problems only different; you would have Kobolds the same as Orcs etc.

About the skeleton, did you take into account it's amazing weakness to turn undead?

I took everything into account I even Rule-0'ed the Skeletons Charisma to equal the zombies. I am sure that Cha 11 is either a typo (as with the Hill Giants Charisma) or just poor judgement by the designers.

In fact I just checked the MM errata and skeletons are indeed meant to have Cha 1.

Though they haven't spotted the flaw in the Hill Giant entry.

Without a cleric in the party, skeletons are actually pretty mean =).

Give them bastard sword; armour and shield.

But since most if not all parties (except my current one) have clerics.. Dunno about CR 2 tho, but they are harder than orcs.

Orcs work out at 0.55 (1).

As for zombies, they're much easier than skeletons, they have only partial actions and crappy ac. Medium skeletons and zombies should be about equal at CR 1 as you said, or maybe CR 3/4.

I would go along with CR 1; but I am happy to let the results stand as they do. The system is only minute fractions out on the most difficult monsters to equate - I can live with that. When I first started designing the CR system I was happy being one point out; now thats down to fractions

Anyhoo, my game went well saturday, players liked it. Talk to ya later

Glad to hear all your hard work paid off! Later dude!

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

'Lo UK

I too am interested in the updated version when your finished typing it.

Vileness -
The damage this weapon deals is vile damge.

Unhallowed -
The area 50ft around this weapon is under the effect of an Unhallow spell.

Accurate-
This weapon will always hit, except on a roll of 1.

Draining -
On a critical hit, this weapon drains Constitution from the target. They recieve a Fort save DC 24, if the succeed there are no adverse effects, if the fail they receive 3d6 temporary Con damage that is temporarily transfered to the weilder (increasing Hp temporarily).

Bye for now....

 

[Anubis]

UK:



You finished it you say? Well formalize it and gimme a copy already! The rounding errors seem to be a little problematic, but perhaps it's best you always round up, error on the side of caution, ie, round the gnoll up to 2 and bugbear up to 3. About the skeleton, did you take into account it's amazing weakness to turn undead? Without a cleric in the party, skeletons are actually pretty mean =). But since most if not all parties (except my current one) have clerics.. Dunno about CR 2 tho, but they are harder than orcs. As for zombies, they're much easier than skeletons, they have only partial actions and crappy ac. Medium skeletons and zombies should be about equal at CR 1 as you said, or maybe CR 3/4.

Anyhoo, my game went well saturday, players liked it. Talk to ya later

Eldorian Antar

Um, skeletons harder than orcs? What game are you playing where two attacks at +0 for 1d4 (only 2 more hp, although effectively 8 more hp) is better than one attack at +3 for 1d12+3 damage?

Statistically speaking, against a standard Level 1 AC (which is 16), skeletons will do an average of 1.27 damage per round, whereas an orc will do an average of 9.88 damage per round. Methinks you should take a second look. I'm not 100% certain of the *exact* math, but I know I came within 1 point of the correct numbers in both cases. Even when you factor in the triple hp, the skeleton STILL doesn't even come CLOSE to measuring up to the orc. That's ASSUMING no cleric or blunt weapons as well, which is HIGHLY unlikely. When you consider that the "standard party" off which CR is based assumes at least one cleric (most likely with a blunt weapon), it makes little sense to actually give the skeleton such a huge CR bump for a minor ability.

Skeletons NOR Zombies are worthy of a CR 1 tag. Level 1 parties can easily take on several of both.

 

[Clay_More]

Greetings & Salutations Upper_Krust

Well, both the Slarecian Dragon, the Iron Devil and the Skin-shedding Hollow Naga are vivid in my mind. I am horribly ill-informed of the matters of the gaming community, hardly any of them GameCon things in Denmark Which is why im lousy at the who's who game.

Generally, I liked the Slarecians of the book. One of my players named the Evil Mercanes, but im not sure....

Would a hard-working, god-creating, weapon-ability-interested bloke have time to take a quick and un-interested glance at another blokes unworthy creation?
(Thats what we in Europe call to "kiss ass" or "smooch").

Got a thread somewhere downstairs for my Vampire (in my bottom header thing. Dont blame me, its your fault. You brought up that you had worked on MM!).

When you mention a Skeletons weaknesses, it is one of those creatures that aren't all-round bad. Theyre weak against clerics, yes. But my group consisting of too many archers had tremendous problems.

So, when will your CR system be available again? Or is it available now?

 

[Upper_Krust]

'Lo UK

Hiya mate!

I too am interested in the updated version when your finished typing it.

I'll keep you all informed.

I still haven't decided if I will be giving this one away before the IH is released (or if at all) to be honest.

Vileness -
The damage this weapon deals is vile damge.

I still don't have the Book of Vile Darkness unfortunately but I believe the damage can only be healed on holy ground or somesuch?

Unhallowed -
The area 50ft around this weapon is under the effect of an Unhallow spell.

Are there any good armour/weapon special abilities in the Book of Vile Darkness.

Accurate-
This weapon will always hit, except on a roll of 1.

Draining -
On a critical hit, this weapon drains Constitution from the target. They recieve a Fort save DC 24, if the succeed there are no adverse effects, if the fail they receive 3d6 temporary Con damage that is temporarily transfered to the weilder (increasing Hp temporarily).

Both already covered!

Bye for now....

See you later!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Um, skeletons harder than orcs? What game are you playing where two attacks at +0 for 1d4 (only 2 more hp, although effectively 8 more hp) is better than one attack at +3 for 1d12+3 damage?

Given the same equipment the skeleton is superior.

Statistically speaking, against a standard Level 1 AC (which is 16), skeletons will do an average of 1.27 damage per round, whereas an orc will do an average of 9.88 damage per round. Methinks you should take a second look. I'm not 100% certain of the *exact* math, but I know I came within 1 point of the correct numbers in both cases. Even when you factor in the triple hp, the skeleton STILL doesn't even come CLOSE to measuring up to the orc. That's ASSUMING no cleric or blunt weapons as well, which is HIGHLY unlikely. When you consider that the "standard party" off which CR is based assumes at least one cleric (most likely with a blunt weapon), it makes little sense to actually give the skeleton such a huge CR bump for a minor ability.

I have already stated that I thought the skeleton was rated fractionally too high. But without cheating the system itself there is no way that a being with its capabilities can be rated lower. It is top heavy in special qualities.

Seemingly after reviewing thousands of monsters the system is a few fractions off perfect accuracy with the skeleton which is only even noticeable because its at in and around CR1.

Skeletons NOR Zombies are worthy of a CR 1 tag. Level 1 parties can easily take on several of both.

Remembering of course that a Level 1 party will likely be PCR 2.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings & Salutations Upper_Krust

Hi Clay_More mate!

Well, both the Slarecian Dragon, the Iron Devil and the Skin-shedding Hollow Naga are vivid in my mind. I am horribly ill-informed of the matters of the gaming community, hardly any of them GameCon things in Denmark Which is why im lousy at the who's who game.

Well the Creature Collection 2 was Open Call so anyone could submit proposals for it.

Generally, I liked the Slarecians of the book. One of my players named the Evil Mercanes, but im not sure....

Would a hard-working, god-creating, weapon-ability-interested bloke have time to take a quick and un-interested glance at another blokes unworthy creation?
(Thats what we in Europe call to "kiss ass" or "smooch").

Sure I'll take a look mate! Not sure how much my feedback will help of course!

Got a thread somewhere downstairs for my Vampire (in my bottom header thing. Dont blame me, its your fault. You brought up that you had worked on MM!).

I'll know better in future!

When you mention a Skeletons weaknesses, it is one of those creatures that aren't all-round bad. Theyre weak against clerics, yes. But my group consisting of too many archers had tremendous problems.

Vindicated at last.

So, when will your CR system be available again? Or is it available now?

The prototype is available now. If you don't have it email me and I will send you a copy (its a 118k pdf). My email address is agooddesigner@hotmail.com

 

[Clay_More]

Well, I sent a mail. Glad that you could find time to take a quickie glance, most people are discouraged when they see a 15-pages long template (for one reason or another).

And as for the skeletons, you should see how proud my players were with their self-developed tactic of using Expeditious Retreat and Longbows, doesn't work so well when you inflict almost no damage though

That is what I sometimes find unbalancing about the lower CR monsters, they are more easily out-balanced by special qualities / attacks, especially when these qualities are ones that work better against some classes / weapons.

 

[Eldorian]

CR isn't only about melee effectiveness. Sleep and color spray pretty much make orc problems non existant, just like turning does to skeletons. And the average first level ac isn't 16... scalemail and 14 dex is GOOD for first level. Skeletons are also immune to sneak attack and critical hits, negating that rogue's bonus damage, where the rogue can drop an orc in one hit pretty easily, not so with a skeleton, especially if he lacks a blunt weapon. I'll admit, orcs can be mean with great axes and studded leather armor, but so can skeletons with great axes and studded leather armor. Skeletons have much superior AC to orcs given the same gear. (armed with large shields and studded leather, skeleton ac hits 19, which is tough at first level.) Also initiative modifiers favor skeletons, which means they may get the jump on the party, and going first is important in the fast paced combat of dnd. So I'll stand by my claim that skeletons are harder than orcs, without clerics, and are about equal to orcs with clerics and a wizard or sorcerer with color spray or sleep.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Gez]

Hiya, UK

Yes. I wrote seven monsters for that book including the Slarecian Dragon; Iron Devil and Mirror Fiend (the ones I am proudest of).

I don't remember which are the other three ?