Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Anubis]

Well when people like you and UK claim that something is broken, and I compare it to something to prove that it isn't, and you retaliate by saying that the other thing compared it to is also broken because it doesn't support your little theories, THAT IS PROOF. All you do is attempt some domino effect that simply puts the whole thing out of whack!

Yes, I'm talking about the Amulet of Natural Armor. I compared armor values and saving throws and used that as an example, and then the retort is that the Amulet of Natural Armor is overpriced.

Basically, you're trying to fix a system that is not broken. This game was NEVER intended to have perfect equity with all things. The feats themselves prove that, as they are equal to each other. Again, I point you to Run and Endurance, two utterly useless feats. Then there are feats that are extremely useful that are better than other feats as well. YOU CAN'Y EQUATE THEM.

Furthermore, if you are unconvinced that you can't, that's beside the point. THERE IS NO NEED. That is the final truth of the matter. Unless you can offer ANY proof that there IS a NEED, then there is none. Things should be done on a case-by-case basis, not a total overrun.

And Eldorian, even if you do agree with UK, that is still only two people against the rest of us who know better than to fret abotu the silly little things. Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor, they're ALL FINE AS-IS, and unless you can prove otherwise, you have NO case!

In order to prove anything, you must stop with the formulas and PLAYTEST. That is the ONLY way to offer REAL proof, because just 'cause it looks good on paper doesn't mean it works the same in the game. Unless playtesting proves these things you are fixing as broken, then they obviously aren't. Innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on you, and you have presented NONE.

 

[Clay_More]

Hey, you shouldnt hold back on which abilities you might end up using. I wont personally need any mention if you use any of mine, I merely want something to brag to my players about

Its a very good idea to expand on the current, existing weapon abilities. In my opinion, those found in DMG / ELH are not enough. Most people end up with Keen / Ghost Touch weapons with a big plus.
The more abilities, the bigger the posibility that a player might find one that he finds suitable for him, so suitable that he's willing to give up some clean plusses to get it.

Are the abilities all going to be "single" abilities, or are some of them "advancable". By advancable, I mean if they will have different variations that cost different plusses (I saw some ideas for this in this thread). I use some of those in my campaign and have even made a rule regarding them. You can go and get an ability "upgraded" for a price equal to modified weapon price - base weapon price. (That means, a weapon which costs 2000 gp. has an ability that costs a +1 market price. That ability has a greater version which costs as +2. A weapon with this would cost 4000 gp, so I allow the player to upgrade it for 2000 gp). This is only possible with the connected abilities and not merely plusses and such.

I even had one of my players acquire a magical item that gained "levels" with him, as a familiar would. It could gain various minor powers each time it advanced. He could save the advancements and buy greater powers etc.

Anyways, again, the Danish one is rambling on...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Hee hee.

Hi Anabstercorian mate!

Yep, and I wrote one of them! Er, I think.

Offhand I am not sure; I'll have to add all the thread regulars to the 'Special Thanks' in the credits. So far I have added any of the ones who have emailed me.

If anyone hasn't emailed me let me know your name sometime in the next month.

At any rate, while I'm not sure I agree with all of your results, Upper_Krust, the methodology you've used to produce them seems sound enough that I'm definately interested in seeing how they work out -

Well thats all I can ask.

The Immortals Handbook is firmly on my purchase list.

I appreciate the love mate!

Speaking of which, are there Greater Speed enhancements, offering an additional 2 or more attacks to the wielder?

Personally I would just let the bonus stack. I mean the cost for a +8 (two attacks) ot +12 (three attacks) is prohibitive. Concentrating on extra attacks will be at the expense of more exotic abilities.

Oh and I have a special weapon ability that takes speed to its logical conclusion.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

UK, that's the thing. I HAVE proven you wrong and you have yet to admit it.

You haven't proven anything!

Give me ONE example!?

I have given ample proof that these things can't be equated, and everybody here save for you has seen that!

One example!? Feel free to quote me anywhere.

By your reasoning, a Ring of Devastating Critical would cost a mere 4000 gp, which is ludicrous!

Have you been paying attention to a word I have typed!?

Did you not see the post I made about Feat strings and prerequisites earlier today!

I say again, you CAN'T put a price on ANY feats!

Yes you can, and all the evidence supports my theory.

 

[Clay_More]

By the way, which company was bringing out IH? I never, ever figured that much out...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Yes, I'm talking about the Amulet of Natural Armor. I compared armor values and saving throws and used that as an example, and then the retort is that the Amulet of Natural Armor is overpriced.

EXPLAIN why the Amulet of Natural Armor costs the same as a Ring of Protection!? It shouldn't. Therefore one or the other is flawed, and since Armour itself is 'Bonus squared x 1000', its more likely that one facet (Natural Armour) is wrong, rather than two (Armour and Deflection). Both Natural Armour and Armour should cost the same.

Basically, you're trying to fix a system that is not broken. This game was NEVER intended to have perfect equity with all things.

We are not trying for perfect equity but rather relative parity.

The feats themselves prove that, as they are equal to each other. Again, I point you to Run and Endurance, two utterly useless feats. Then there are feats that are extremely useful that are better than other feats as well. YOU CAN'Y EQUATE THEM.

We can equate them. Even if there are some less useful feats such as Run and the various Armour Proficiency Feats (which should be a single feat) and possibly some slightly more powerful feats like Rapid Shot, what we are looking for is relative balance.

We know they should all fit within rough parameters; with the caveat that feat strings allow those parameters to increase.

Furthermore, if you are unconvinced that you can't, that's beside the point. THERE IS NO NEED. That is the final truth of the matter. Unless you can offer ANY proof that there IS a NEED, then there is none. Things should be done on a case-by-case basis, not a total overrun.

There is a need. This thread revolves around the Immortals Handbook remember!? The whole CR/EL system was designed out of necessity for that work. Not just because the CR/EL rules are useless at 20+.

Gods can create other beings; but if you don't have a functioning CR assembly mechanic the whole thing won't be balanced.

And Eldorian, even if you do agree with UK, that is still only two people against the rest of us who know better than to fret abotu the silly little things.

Appeal to the masses...again. I told you it doesn't matter how many billions think you are right - its the facts that count in this matter.

Cloak of Resistance, Amulet of Natural Armor, they're ALL FINE AS-IS, and unless you can prove otherwise, you have NO case!

I have proved it! Over and over again.

The Amulet of Natural Armour should cost the same as an Armour bonus; not a deflection bonus.

The Cloak of Resistance is either underpriced or the feats which bestow save bonuses are too weak.

In order to prove anything, you must stop with the formulas and PLAYTEST. That is the ONLY way to offer REAL proof, because just 'cause it looks good on paper doesn't mean it works the same in the game. Unless playtesting proves these things you are fixing as broken, then they obviously aren't. Innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on you, and you have presented NONE.

Don't talk nonsense. How can you playtest the proper cost of a Cloak of Resistance for goodness sake!?

We know the measure of a typical feat. We know the approximate cost of a feat (or an effect duplicating a feat) in a magic item.

All the evidence therein tells us that either the Cloak of Resistance is underpriced or Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will are all slightly weak.

It also tells us that the Skill Focus feat is seriously undervalued.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Clay_More mate!

Hey, you shouldnt hold back on which abilities you might end up using. I wont personally need any mention if you use any of mine, I merely want something to brag to my players about

Even so I always give credit where its due.

Point of honour and all that.

Its a very good idea to expand on the current, existing weapon abilities. In my opinion, those found in DMG / ELH are not enough. Most people end up with Keen / Ghost Touch weapons with a big plus.

The more abilities, the bigger the posibility that a player might find one that he finds suitable for him, so suitable that he's willing to give up some clean plusses to get it.

Absolutely. I hope people will get a big kick out of them.

Are the abilities all going to be "single" abilities, or are some of them "advancable". By advancable, I mean if they will have different variations that cost different plusses (I saw some ideas for this in this thread).

There are at least a dozen weapon abilities that are scalable. I present the lowest common denominator and then how to scale them.

I use some of those in my campaign and have even made a rule regarding them. You can go and get an ability "upgraded" for a price equal to modified weapon price - base weapon price. (That means, a weapon which costs 2000 gp. has an ability that costs a +1 market price. That ability has a greater version which costs as +2. A weapon with this would cost 4000 gp, so I allow the player to upgrade it for 2000 gp). This is only possible with the connected abilities and not merely plusses and such.

Seems plausible. In fact thats exactly the way I would do it.

I even had one of my players acquire a magical item that gained "levels" with him, as a familiar would. It could gain various minor powers each time it advanced. He could save the advancements and buy greater powers etc.

I have something like that in the IH.

Anyways, again, the Danish one is rambling on...

Appreciate the interest mate!

By the way, which company was bringing out IH? I never, ever figured that much out...

Thats because I won't be revealing the publisher until after the ELH and D&Dg enter the SRD.

 

[Clay_More]

There are at least a dozen weapon abilities that are scalable. I present the lowest common denominator and then how to scale them.

Thats what I hoped, my group wont even cross level 10 for another couple of months, dont think they need any +10 equivelant weapons just yet

How will undead deities function by the way? Concept seems strange to me, since deities normally hold the power to destroy undeads (or command them).

 

[Anubis]

Like I said, you do whatever you want. I'll have none of it. It's useless arguing with a brick wall. I have played these rules since they were released and I KNOW which ones are messed up and which ones are not. I KNOW what can be equated and what can not through simple playtesting. I KNOW when I hear someone trying to fix something that is not broken.

You have provided no proof for ANY of your theories, yet you say you have. I have shown ample proof as to what I have said, yet you dismiss everything with a grain of salt.

I grow weary of this. It has become obvious that you have lost sight of what was truly important, which was making a SIMPLE YET BALANCE system for determining CR/ECL/EL. Now you have diverted on tangents spanning every factor of the game. Argh . . .

Anyway, I'm outta here. I'll still get the Immortal's Handbook for the deity information, but I imagine this stuff will be useless to me because I feel that the current system works just fine.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Alright, that's quite enough fo that.

I've been watching this argument for a while, and while both of you have had many clever and legitimate points arguing your case, I'm forced to make a comment. Both of you seem to think that you're each ignoring the others arguments - This is not the case from the best of my perception. You're both examining each others arguments, spotting significant holes in them, and dismissing them because of reasoned counter-arguments. Neither of you is off-handedly dismissing anything, and as flamy as this has gotten, I admire that.