Improved TWF, Quickdraw and Thrown Weapons?
- Thread starter Nifft
- Start date
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Nifft said:
In 3.5? Absolutely.
In 3E? No way.
-Hyp.
Oscar carramiñana
First Post
I think that answer is yes
Chris Parker
First Post
Also, whats your strength and how many Halflings do you have within arms reach...
James McMurray
First Post
Don't forget to also get Rapid Shot and Boots of Speed (or a friendly spellcaster to cast haste).
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
The TWF, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot combo is the one laid out in the excellent Warrior's Strategy Guide. Adding Improved TWF does sweeten the deal, but the extra penalty lessens the benefit somewhat.
Let's say there's a 10th level Fighter using this. For simplicity, we'll assume non-magical, non-masterwork weapons, no Str bonuses, etc.
Having a BAB of +10, this guy is using two weapons with range increments (either a dagger, throwing axe, or light hammer - sais cost an Exotic Weapon Proficiency); one in each hand. He has Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot.
This guy's usual full attack is +10/+5. Using the dagger also makes this +8/+8/+3 with Two-Weapon Fighting. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting adds another off-hand attack at -5 (this penalty replaces the usual one for two-weapon fighting, and is subtracted from the total BAB), so now it becomes +8/+8/+5/+3.
Adding in Rapid Shot, you get another attack at your highest BAB, and every attack takes an additional -2 penalty. So now you're working at +6/+6/+3/+1 with an extra ranged attack at +6 (-2 for the Rapid Shot penalty, -2 for making an off-hand attack; ostensibly this extra attack is made after the others). Don't forget that the Point Blank Shot means he gets a +1 to attack and damage at targets within 30 ft., and that his off-hand attacks are at 1/2 Str bonus to damage, since thrown weapons get Str damage bonuses. Also, since he needs a minimum of Dex 16 to get Rapid Shot, he has at least a +3 bonus to his ranged attacks.
Considering that the Quick Draw feat says you can throw weapons at your full rate of attack, this guy is hurling daggers or whatever he's using the entire round.
This becomes somewhat problematic if he wants to use some of this in melee combat.
Since only the Rapid Shot attack is an extra attack, the others are all part of a normal full attack action. Assuming this guy is still using throwable weapons in each hand, what he can do is make his full attack action with all the feats in play, and at any point during that full attack, he can make a free 5-ft. step backwards and begin throwing them instead, to get the Rapid Shot feat attack. This 5-ft. step doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity - provided that 5-ft. step took you out of your opponent's reach.
Things become more complicated if he's using a weapon with no range increments in his primary hand and a throwing weapon off-hand (although you can throw non-throwable weapons, the penalty is such that I won't discuss that here). Since off-hand attacks are part of a normal iterative attack routine, and iterative attacks are always made in highest-to-lowest order, taking the 5-ft step back before you make all your normal attacks would be counter-productive, since then you couldn't use your primary weapon. E.g. in a +8/+8/+3 attack sequence made with TWF, either the first or second +8 is from your primary weapon, as is the +3, so stepping back to where you couldn't use that just so you can hurl your dagger cripples you. Your best bet here is to make your entire attack routine, and then take the 5-ft. step back and use the extra ranged attack provided by Rapid Shot, then immediately Quick Draw another one for the next round of combat - since that attack is "extra", you don't make that until after your other attacks have been made.
Let's say there's a 10th level Fighter using this. For simplicity, we'll assume non-magical, non-masterwork weapons, no Str bonuses, etc.
Having a BAB of +10, this guy is using two weapons with range increments (either a dagger, throwing axe, or light hammer - sais cost an Exotic Weapon Proficiency); one in each hand. He has Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot.
This guy's usual full attack is +10/+5. Using the dagger also makes this +8/+8/+3 with Two-Weapon Fighting. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting adds another off-hand attack at -5 (this penalty replaces the usual one for two-weapon fighting, and is subtracted from the total BAB), so now it becomes +8/+8/+5/+3.
Adding in Rapid Shot, you get another attack at your highest BAB, and every attack takes an additional -2 penalty. So now you're working at +6/+6/+3/+1 with an extra ranged attack at +6 (-2 for the Rapid Shot penalty, -2 for making an off-hand attack; ostensibly this extra attack is made after the others). Don't forget that the Point Blank Shot means he gets a +1 to attack and damage at targets within 30 ft., and that his off-hand attacks are at 1/2 Str bonus to damage, since thrown weapons get Str damage bonuses. Also, since he needs a minimum of Dex 16 to get Rapid Shot, he has at least a +3 bonus to his ranged attacks.
Considering that the Quick Draw feat says you can throw weapons at your full rate of attack, this guy is hurling daggers or whatever he's using the entire round.
This becomes somewhat problematic if he wants to use some of this in melee combat.
Since only the Rapid Shot attack is an extra attack, the others are all part of a normal full attack action. Assuming this guy is still using throwable weapons in each hand, what he can do is make his full attack action with all the feats in play, and at any point during that full attack, he can make a free 5-ft. step backwards and begin throwing them instead, to get the Rapid Shot feat attack. This 5-ft. step doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity - provided that 5-ft. step took you out of your opponent's reach.
Things become more complicated if he's using a weapon with no range increments in his primary hand and a throwing weapon off-hand (although you can throw non-throwable weapons, the penalty is such that I won't discuss that here). Since off-hand attacks are part of a normal iterative attack routine, and iterative attacks are always made in highest-to-lowest order, taking the 5-ft step back before you make all your normal attacks would be counter-productive, since then you couldn't use your primary weapon. E.g. in a +8/+8/+3 attack sequence made with TWF, either the first or second +8 is from your primary weapon, as is the +3, so stepping back to where you couldn't use that just so you can hurl your dagger cripples you. Your best bet here is to make your entire attack routine, and then take the 5-ft. step back and use the extra ranged attack provided by Rapid Shot, then immediately Quick Draw another one for the next round of combat - since that attack is "extra", you don't make that until after your other attacks have been made.
Similar Threads
D&D 5E (2024)
Snarf's Complete Two Weapon Fighting and Grappling Guide
