Ferghis
First Post
This thread is inspired by those that have noticed the difference between monster defenses and PC attack bonuses. There is a similar pattern with respect to initiative. As the PCs grow in level, the difference between an appropriate level monster's initiative bonus and an average PC's initiative bonus increases pretty drammatically. The basis of my thesis is this pulled-out-of-my-rear chart. The columns I focus on are the second and third ones from the right. Ignore the fact that I left a cell selected when I took the screenshot.
Level: the level of the character or monster.
Monster Init: average initiative of a monster of that level. This is the monster's half level bonus plus the dex bonus. I assumed that the dex began at 13, and was increased by half level. Since skirmishers, soldiers and lurkers get bonuses to their initiative (of +2, +2, and +4 respectively, I added a +1 to make the average more in line with the fact that half the roles get initiative bonuses. There is considerable variation among monster initiatives, particularly among monsters of higher level, so the real bonus could be much higher or lower at the top levels.
Primary Init: this is the initiative bonus of a character whose primary ability score yields an initiative bonus. For example, a Thief or a Deva with Battle Intuition and Wisdom as his or her principal ability score. This assumes that the ability starts at 18, is raised at every opportunity, and that the epic destiny also raises it by two. No other bonuses (such as feat or item bonuses) have been added into this score.
Delta: the difference between the two colums to the left.
Delta for L+2: the difference between the initiative of a monster of level +2 and the Primary Init score of the same level. I added this info because it seems that this is often a normal encounter.
Normal Init: this is the initiative bonus of a character who, at creation, has a 12 in the ability that yields an initiative bonus. There is considerable variation here, and while it could be a point or two higher, it could also be a point or two lower. This only increased at levels 11 and 21, and therfore the bonus increases at level 21.
Delta: the difference between Monster Init and Normal Init.
Delta for L+2: the difference between Monster Init two levels above the Normal Init.
Feat+Item: the bonus to initiative granted by taking Improved Initiative (+4 feat bonus) at level 4, retraining it to Superior Initiative (+8 feat bonus) at level 22, and donning a tier-appropriate Casque of Tactics (+1/2/3 item bonus) at levels 6, 16, and 26 (the item is of level 4/14/24, but it's not among the first items that would get upgraded).
The conclusion I draw from the numbers above is that a character who does not invest in his or her initiative will, at higher levels, almost always lose initiative. While I can agree that such a character should be penalized to some extent, a ten point difference, on average, is too much. And forcing a character to invest a feat or a head-slot item to remedy this seems, to me, coercive character building. In other words, if I don't have an ability score that contributes to the initiative as a primary attribute, I am forced to spend a feat and a head slot item to remain competitive.
This is not as big a problem as the attack vs defense disparity: winning initiative usually only affects the first round of battle (although winning initiative has consequences on the remainder of the battle). But it's a real enough issue to players who want to build mechanically-sound characters. For example, almost every character optimizer takes the feats and has an item bonus to initiative or has some gambit to optimize initiative.
The solution is to perhaps allow characters to add their highest bonus to initiative (instead of dex), and apply a penalty to it if it is not dex (maybe three points?). This should allow it to scale properly throughout a character's career. What do folks think about this?
Level: the level of the character or monster.
Monster Init: average initiative of a monster of that level. This is the monster's half level bonus plus the dex bonus. I assumed that the dex began at 13, and was increased by half level. Since skirmishers, soldiers and lurkers get bonuses to their initiative (of +2, +2, and +4 respectively, I added a +1 to make the average more in line with the fact that half the roles get initiative bonuses. There is considerable variation among monster initiatives, particularly among monsters of higher level, so the real bonus could be much higher or lower at the top levels.
Primary Init: this is the initiative bonus of a character whose primary ability score yields an initiative bonus. For example, a Thief or a Deva with Battle Intuition and Wisdom as his or her principal ability score. This assumes that the ability starts at 18, is raised at every opportunity, and that the epic destiny also raises it by two. No other bonuses (such as feat or item bonuses) have been added into this score.
Delta: the difference between the two colums to the left.
Delta for L+2: the difference between the initiative of a monster of level +2 and the Primary Init score of the same level. I added this info because it seems that this is often a normal encounter.
Normal Init: this is the initiative bonus of a character who, at creation, has a 12 in the ability that yields an initiative bonus. There is considerable variation here, and while it could be a point or two higher, it could also be a point or two lower. This only increased at levels 11 and 21, and therfore the bonus increases at level 21.
Delta: the difference between Monster Init and Normal Init.
Delta for L+2: the difference between Monster Init two levels above the Normal Init.
Feat+Item: the bonus to initiative granted by taking Improved Initiative (+4 feat bonus) at level 4, retraining it to Superior Initiative (+8 feat bonus) at level 22, and donning a tier-appropriate Casque of Tactics (+1/2/3 item bonus) at levels 6, 16, and 26 (the item is of level 4/14/24, but it's not among the first items that would get upgraded).
The conclusion I draw from the numbers above is that a character who does not invest in his or her initiative will, at higher levels, almost always lose initiative. While I can agree that such a character should be penalized to some extent, a ten point difference, on average, is too much. And forcing a character to invest a feat or a head-slot item to remedy this seems, to me, coercive character building. In other words, if I don't have an ability score that contributes to the initiative as a primary attribute, I am forced to spend a feat and a head slot item to remain competitive.
This is not as big a problem as the attack vs defense disparity: winning initiative usually only affects the first round of battle (although winning initiative has consequences on the remainder of the battle). But it's a real enough issue to players who want to build mechanically-sound characters. For example, almost every character optimizer takes the feats and has an item bonus to initiative or has some gambit to optimize initiative.
The solution is to perhaps allow characters to add their highest bonus to initiative (instead of dex), and apply a penalty to it if it is not dex (maybe three points?). This should allow it to scale properly throughout a character's career. What do folks think about this?
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