Involuntary movement = AoO?

[0-hr]

I'm a bit confused about movement done between your turns and how it relates to AoOs. If someone is bull rushed, they provoke AoO's as they are pushed back even through it is not their turn and they are not voluntarily moving.

What if they are only pushed back 5ft? Does it matter if they moved at all on their last turn (or their next turn)?

What about other forms of involuntary movment like Great Throw, or sliding down an incline, or falling? Are there any rules, guidelines, or even hints about how to properly adjucate such things consistently?

Just to get things started, my best guess would be to count any movment done on the vicitm's previous turn. So if they stood still last action, they could be pushed 5ft without lowering their defences. But if they moved at all, then even a 5ft bull rush will cause them to provoke AoO's. That's just a guess though, and it seems funny to think of someone plumetting past you drawing an AoO as they cross your threatened area.

 

[kreynolds]

Just to get things started, my best guess would be to count any movment done on the vicitm's previous turn. So if they stood still last action, they could be pushed 5ft without lowering their defences. But if they moved at all, then even a 5ft bull rush will cause them to provoke AoO's.

Actually, that's how I understood how it works. Sorry, I don't have much to offer except confirmation that I see this in the same light as you. Anybody else?

 

[Rel]

I would interpret it differently because a they are not making a "5 foot adjustment" which implies moving a short distance while keeping your guard up. They are being involuntarily pushed which I think means that you are not staying focused on protecting yourself from the person who makes the AoO.

But perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[Corwin]

What about other forms of involuntary movement like Great Throw, or sliding down an incline, or falling? Are there any rules, guidelines, or even hints about how to properly adjucate such things consistently?

We've had the same problem. My monk has Great Throw and we can't seem to find anything to point us in the direction of what the "official" rules should allow.

For now, we are taking the side of discretion and not allowing it. My take was that it is really just a Trip Attack with special extra goodies tossed in. Since a regular Trip doesn't provoke an AoO on the falling target, I don't think Great Throw should either. I mean, it's bad enough the poor victim takes your damage and falls prone, but to allow the rogue to sneak in a dozen d6's, on the way down, is just plain rude.

Since a Bull Rush doesn't do any actual damage, it seems a bit less of a stretch to allow someone else to get a swing in on them as they pass by.

I would probably allow AoOs on someone slipping down an incline. They are basically scrambling past you, so yes.

Falling past is technically no different. Though if the target were falling anywhere near fast, I'd probably ad-hoc something to take into consideration the difficulty in timing the swing (or whatever) to hit. Either a Reflex save to get the attack off right, or maybe just a penalty to hit for very fast movement. I dunno, it just seems like the right thing to do.

But that's all just IMO.

 

[IceBear]

I see AoO as a free attack as a result of lowering your guard. I could conceive someone being wildly offbalance while being bull rushed and thus open themselves up to an AoO. Though why they tie it to movement doesn't really make sense to me - I'd just go with the person is unable to defend himself against anyone else and so can suffer an AoO.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

I would interpret it differently because a they are not making a "5 foot adjustment" which implies moving a short distance while keeping your guard up. They are being involuntarily pushed which I think means that you are not staying focused on protecting yourself from the person who makes the AoO.

But perhaps I'm wrong.

Well, if all you do is move 5-feet in a threatened area in a round, it doesn't matter if it was a 5-foot adjustment (step) or a 5-foot move, as neither of them would provoke an AoO. If, however, you had already performed either one, then you have moved, so if you get pushed back another 5-feet, you have now moved more than 5-feet in a threatened area in a round, so you might provoke an AoO.

 

[Zenon]

Just remember the following:

From the SRD:

Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against the combatant during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than the combatant against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the combatant.

I'd let AoO's happen from being moved, but I'd roll the pecentile to see who they hit. I consider the "during the bull rush" in the above to include the movement while being pushed back.

 

[IceBear]

Well, if all you do is move 5-feet in a threatened area in a round, it doesn't matter if it was a 5-foot adjustment (step) or a 5-foot move, as neither of them would provoke an AoO. If, however, you had already performed either one, then you have moved, so if you get pushed back another 5-feet, you have now moved more than 5-feet in a threatened area in a round, so you might provoke an AoO.

True, but they are semantically different things. A 5ft step isn't a 5-ft adjustment unless declared as such. Sure at the END of the round, if all the player did was move the 5ft he could say it was a 5ft adjustment, but at the beginning of the round he might have meant just a 5ft move (this was relevant in a discussion in the past - maybe something to do with haste?)

Anyway, I just say that the move from a bullrush is something else completely. If the character had moved 30ft that round and then was bullrushed another 5ft I wouldn't say that he couldn't be moved because he has no movement left for that round. It's just something "extra" and I wouldn't count it as a 5ft adjustment.

IceBear

 

[Stalker0]

I think by the bull rush scenario its pretty apparent that anytime you get moved by someone else you provoke an AOO.

However, since the core rules don't have any throwing of characters, throwing was not considered for AOO. I'd go with the trip example, when your tripped, you "fall" through your square but don't provoke AOO from those right around you. I'd say that someone being thrown is falling, and therefore very hard to hit, negating the ability to be hit with AOO.

Regardless of how you see it, you'll need to house rule throwing a character if you allow it, cause as far as I know, there is no rules in the books that really cover them.

 

[IceBear]

I'd agree with that feeling too.

IceBear