(IR) Announcing a New Strategic Roleplaying Campaign of Epic Proportions!

[Serpenteye]

Edena_of_Neith here. Greetings to all my old friends and to the new people too. Glad to meet you!

Almost 3 years ago, I ran the 3rd IR. It went from early January to late March of 2001.
We carried the 3rd IR to a point in the storyline where I felt I could stop.

But, I want everyone to know just what it meant, to run the 3rd IR, with it's 25 players and rules complexity - and this, the 5th, IR has a large number of players and some rules complexity, so there is a rough analogy, and what applied there may well apply here too.

I had to work 8 to 12 hours a day, every day, for 3 months straight - working day and night - to conduct the 3rd IR. That's hardly a boast: many people were greatly dissatisfied with the pace of the IR (it was too slow.)
I collapsed under the pressure and workload on Turn 5, then recovered, and the IR recovered ... miraculously. I guess it really recovered because most of my players really wanted it to, wanted the fun to continue, and refused to let my mistakes kill it.

The single biggest thing that caused pressure on me was a deluge of e-mails. A literal deluge.
I had 25 people simultaneously:
- Sending in plans for the tech arms race, magical arms race, troop build-up and movement, alliances, special plans for special inventions, special plans for how those inventions would be used, and so on.
- A lot of questions concerning the rules. This includes people asking me to resolve a rule where I had already e-mailed them with the resolution, and in a few cases people accusing me of ignoring their question when I had already e-mailed them with a resolution (I did miss a lot of questions, though, and this angered players justifiably.)
- A lot of grand plans. By grand, I mean plans on the order of creating new races, colonizing other worlds, taking over another power by wildly nefarious means, and some rather incredible magical and technological inventions that were all too plausible in the environment (for example, someone figured out how, using low level spells and basic materials, to blow up the planet! If that sounds like a joke, think again: I had to arbitrate that.)

The deluge of e-mails, coming day and night, was in addition to everything happening on-screen. A double whammy.

By freak circumstances, I had the time to spend, back then. I had the 8 to 12 hours a day, every day. And I was obsessed: obsessed with making the IR work, keeping it going, and making it great (I may not have succeeded in making it great, but I tried.)

You succeeded Edena, you succeeded at doing the impossible. I can honestly say (and I know that this sounds weird) that the 3rd IR has had a real impact on my life. I will try to do as much, pretentious as that may sound, but it will be easier for me because I have learned from you. I have learned from your successes and from your failures. And, as importantly, it does seem like I'm going to get a the support from a lot of our intelligent and dedicated players.
But yes, I have learned. I know what happens when the DM pushes himself too hard, trying to make everybody happy all the time when doing so is impossible. I know what happens when the DM burns out, lashes out, and still thinks of everybody else before he thinks about his own needs. And I know, so very, very well, that I'm not half the DM you are Edena.
I'll try to take it easy, handle the game with good humour and a certain degree of detachment and self-irony. I'll put in the hours, but I'll spread it out, split it up into smaller parts that are easier to handle to allow both myself and the players the time we need. I will try to make the game flow naturally in a way that both the rules and common sence indicates. I will try to use my meager skill in handling the English language in a way that should be adequate. (Although I know that my writing is sloppy and full of gramatical errors and misspellings.) But, honestly, I'm afraid that I will be unequal to the task.
Edena is a brilliant writer and story-teller. His writing can be both bone-chillingly terrifying and hilariously funny. He is passionate, compassionate, committed 100% to everything that I've seen him do. He is a man who gives of himself even when it does him actual bodily harm.
I am a selfish nihilistic little man, and I do this not primarily for any of your sakes but for my own. Your enjoyment means a lot to me because I do not enjoy failing, so I will carry this trough to the end and try to be as brilliant as I possibly can, but I will not kill myself over this. I am lying to you even now, for I do not truly know myself, but I will tell myself this lie and try to be calm in the face of whatever may come.

Now ...

Serpenteye is brighter than I am.
Serpenteye has a stronger work ethic than I do (he can accomplish far more, per hour of work, than I can.)
Serpenteye has access to better computer programs than I do.
And Serpenteye has the help of Guilt Puppy, in making the map (a CRUCIAL development, without which I don't know how we'd do this at all. Without Maudlin, the 3rd IR wouldn't have worked at all, much less been as good as it was for many people.)

But ...

Serpenteye has limits: physical, psychological, timewise, and otherwise.
If those limits are overthrown, we will have a burned out Gamemaster.
A burned out Gamemaster means the 5th IR is over.
Finis the fun. Finis the IR.
We don't want that to happen.

I will go out on a limb here, and say the following:

We must coddle Serpenteye along. That's not meant to be condescending in any way, but is the literal truth. We must help him, must be patient with him, must NOT attack him or accuse him of ignoring us, and otherwise give him every bit of slack possible.
Even if we do that, Serpenteye will still face overwhelming pressure.

We MUST NOT deluge Serpenteye with e-mails!!! We must limit e-mails as much as we can: trust me when I say that he will still have a LOT of e-mails to deal with, even if we exercise great restraint!

Anyone who can help with maps (THANK YOU, GUILT PUPPY) needs to work with Serpenteye and help him as a surrogate.

We players must not be lazy. We must proactively read the rules, understand the rules (and accept the consequences on ourselves if we do not understand, rather than blame Serpenteye), and act on them.
Those players who have not claimed factions, should claim them, and aggressively develop them.
Players should try to be self-reliant as much as possible. Don't lean on the Gamemaster any more than is possible. We must do it ourselves.
If that sounds unreasonable, imagine being a gamemaster where everyone wants every single little question about their power answered in triplicate, then has more questions from the answers, and is constantly hitting the gamemaster with e-mails and online comments, and ... we have a burned out gamemaster.

We players are the bearers of the IR. That has ALWAYS BEEN TRUE of the IRs. We, not the gamemaster, carry the game. The gamemaster simply arbitrates, going along with our insanity!
If we rely on the gamemaster to make all the calls, to play the game for us, he will be whelmed. Remember that Serpenteye has his hands full with rules and unclaimed powers as it is: he has no time to play our game for us too!

We must do this in the spirit of fun. The SECRET of a successful IR (take it from the IR's creator, folks) is that it is slightly tongue-in-cheek. It is not dead serious, and neither is it totally frivolous, but somewhere in between.
In a scenario where you have a faction seriously trying to take over the world in a strategic game, yet the possibility exists of someone blowing up the world with some crazy invention (or, in the case of the 1st IR, turning all the evil races good, turning the sky green, letting pure Chaos hit Realmspace, and other things of this sort), there has to be a kind of ... compromise ... between seriousness and frivolity.

If you go all serious, you will take the frivolous elements of the IR as ridiculous, and we lose players, and that disheartens everyone. Not to mention, Serpenteye will be accused of being a ridiculous gamemaster (I know, for it happened to me, folks.) This will not make Serpenteye feel very good, will it?
And if Serpenteye is not feeling good, and is not having fun himself, you have a burned out gamemaster, and why not? Why should he run the game when people are attacking him, or not having fun themselves, or quitting en mass?

If you go completely frivolous, this won't work either. Serpenteye (and I, in the 3rd IR) developed rules, and the rules were meant to be used. A guideline by which to hang all the impossible inventions, dreams, and plots upon.
Learn the rules, respect the rules, and use the rules to win! That is what Serpenteye did himself in the 3rd IR as a player, and he was winning because of it!
And when Serpenteye sees that players are working hard to win, using his rules, he will take that as a sign people are truly interesting in his game, truly respect his game, like his game, and want to stay the course. That will mean more fun for him, and more inspiration for him.

Did you know that when the players are having fun, it generates fun for the gamemaster?
And when the gamemaster is having fun, he is generally a better gamemaster, and runs a better (read: funner) game?
And that this becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, and feeds on itself?
I am presuming that all of you know this. And the cycle can feed on itself until the players are all but maniacal in their efforts to play and win! (I should know. I watched the 1st IR explode like a rocket. It was astounding. I had never expected a casual question to turn into a major game!)
Try to have fun, try to help others have fun, try to help Serpenteye have fun, and that will be reciprocated! If it looks too frivolous (or absurd, or over the top) let it go: it's only an IR. If it looks too serious, let it go and loosen up: the strain on you will kill your power as surely as the enemy will!

Now, I may have offended people with this post, but that was not my intent.
I may have told you a LOT of things you ALREADY know. I appreciate that: I am just trying to relate what I learned from the 3 IRs I ran.

I am informed that the 4th IR, the Rokugan IR, died due to burn-out.
We don't want that to happen to us!
And it won't happen if we are having fun, and we are trying to have fun and help others have fun, and cutting slack for others, and maintainng the compromise between the frivolous and the serious.

That does not mean that everyone is going to be happy with the 5th IR.
Some players will simply find the situation unfun and/or intolerable. And they will quit.
This is inevitable.
But, if we work at this, most of us will stay the course, and we will make this an IR for the record books.
And THAT will be remembered, and cherished in our memories, and the legacy of the IR will be one of fun, friendship, and perhaps a desire to start a 6th IR!

I CARE about this 5th IR. I cared enough to post this. If we care about the IR, and we work hard to make it work, and we compromise between seriousness and frivolity, and we fight to aid Serpenteye against burn-out ... this could be an IR that goes down in legend.

Yours in True Sincerity and in Humbleness
Edena_of_Neith

You flatter me Edena, for I do not believe that I am more intelligent than you are. But if I have learned one thing in this life it is that intelligence counts for very little. What matters is how it's being used, and by helping me with all the big and small details of this IR you are making me effectively more intelligent, enabling me to put my thoughts to work where I'm needed.

The IR is about the players, you are absolutely right about that Edena. But the ultimate responsibility for it is mine. You are free to try anything, do anything, and it is your actions that determine the outcome of the game. I am free to turn you down, to be as fair or unfair as I have to be to make the game work. I am flawed. I am human. I will make mistakes, and so will you.

I cannot do this without you. If I do I'm just a sad little man sitting home alone and playing with himself (the pun is intentional, and in very bad taste. ).

For the purposes of the IR I would define technology as anything derived from technology or plans brought to Oerth by the Demons. That seems both finite, clear, and pretty accurate for the IR.

Second, you didn't answer my earlier second question: Would there be any benefit to researching BOTH magic AND psionics?

Yes... That's reasonable, and would allow for spells that targeted such fiendish influences.

No. Magic and Psionics ultimately spring from the same source, the fundamental energy of the Multiverse. They take different paths and different expressions, but are not that dissimilar. High Magic taps into magic and Psionics from a primal and powerful level where the two energies are pretty much indistinguishable from each others.
Druidic magic springs from Life, a more evolved (and different) aspect of the primal energies that lie at the core of existance. And Divine Magic springs from a very highly evolved and complex source, the faith of the minds of sentient beings.

All you need to know, for all practical purposes, is: No, they are the same.

I picked out three jigsaw pieces off map precisely because I saw the whole invade a single part and die situation already. Another note related though: The Marchwards I talked about are the rulers of the "Kingdoms of the Marches" shown on the map here http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif that I was using as my basis for pickin' and choosin'.

The Mare Mysticum Alliance

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Very good.

So, up to date again having read all of it I'll post a description of my faction in the next few days. I'm kinda ill (like when haven't I been for the last 5 years but now just a tad worse then normal) and my study is killing me and I still have a D&D game to run tomorrow so it might take a few days to get it all together and with decent descriptions and stuff.

So please bare with me here hehe. Looks good btw, everything and all that Just one thing I'd like to contribute as advice to Serp:

Keep the players on a short leash on several levels. People will attempt the weirdest, boldest and most severely power increasing plans and plots from the start. Don't give in to that, giving too much power too fast will destroy the game like what happened in the Rokugan IR.

Keep the power increase kinda low, no super plans and stuff happening and allowing in the first couple of rounds. Alot of people will enjoy playing with the map as it is. Like as in the RISK game and all that. Most people will enjoy battleing it out with normal armys over borders, without having to think about nukes, airstrikes and magical catastrophes. Not even mensioning Spelljamming and teleporting armys that appear all over the world in an instant (or the 6 seconds it takes to cast the teleport spell in question) that destroy your most intrecate defense plans for your borders and the pleasure you get from natural borders and obstacles like mountains and stuff.

Let the first few turns be simple, not too complicated with everyones plans comming to fruition too soon. This is what destroyed the Rokugan IR and what caused the reset for the 3rd IR in the first place (yes if you remember, the 3rd IR was reset after the 3rd turn orso when I abused the system and had like 8 people summoning my devils which resulted in my amount of PL exploding and ruining everything for everyone, my bad.).

Everyone will enjoy the classic battlefields and that kinda stuff, the weird magic and tech stuff will come later. People will grow into it over the course of a couple of turns.

Hope I said something usefull to increase game enjoyment for everyone

You've read my mind Forsaken One. Now, go wash yourself, young man .

Hope you get better soon.

...
I would ask about the second point- could I, for example, negotiate with an Infiltrator faction to infiltrate territory X and pass on the info for me; in exchange, I'll pay for the insertion cost, or such-and-such many regular PL's. If I get this right, since regular PL that aren't converted to armies can represent any number of things, including money, this is a reasonable system.

Oh, yes. You can pass information around freely. You can even send each other gifts of money or volunteers, or demand wealth or territory in exchange for your assistance. That's all fine, but magic and technological infrastructure are not that easily transferable.

One thing I did want to add, and didn't have time for, was that I think it would be cool (and, perhaps more to the point, balanced) to allow people to cast high-level spells over multiple factions if they both have the capability. For example, both Celene and the Mare Mysticum (a purely hypthoetical alliance, I assure you) have access to 10th-level spells and X and Y number of Epic PLs. Alone, they could cast a certain number of 10th-level spells per turn; together, their mages wreak untold devastation!

Very often in fiction, paticularly in the history of a world (random thought: after we wrap this up, run an RPG game set in post-IR greyhawk, if there is one), there's a line about "The mages of Elves and priests of men combined their power to..." etc., etc. and it would be great if we could throw that sort of thing in here.

That's perfectly all right. As long as both factions have the ability to cast spells they can do so together. But you will find that the spell-progression in my rules do not usually reward such cooperation, except in the circumstance where one or both of the factions do not have enough PL to cast a spell of a spell-level they have researched.
Actually planning to use this as a strategy requires you to put a lot of trust in your fellow players, for if they would betray you you would suddenly find yourself in a great deal of trouble. Can you really trust anyone that much, when their suggestion of such a cooperation might well be a trap to make you into their helpless victim? Even people who present themselves as Good may harbour Evil in their heart, just waiting to be unleashed on the unsuspecting. There can be alliances, and counter-alliances, double and triple agents. Who can you really trust...? (Muahaha)

To return to something you said earlier, perhaps small mage-centric factions like the Circle of Eight should have a Researcher trait, to go along with the small rogue-centric Infiltrators, allowing them to get more bang for their epic PL buck. This would allow them to compete with their larger neighbors in a way similar to the way Infiltrator does. This may or may not be required, depending on how you "stat out" the territories and forces they control.

I've considered that. The problem is that those factions might manage to make themselves quite powerful by skillful play, and that every IC they captured would be twize as powerful for them as it would be for any other faction. It would encourage, or if the circumstances are pressing even force, other factions of similar alignment and apparent goals to clear the way for that Researcher faction, by directly or indirectly donating power to them. Donating wealth, handing over conquered provinces, defending them from attackers enabling them to put everything they have into research... The ways are many, and I cannot ban them all or I may as well make you all into my personal NPCs.

A similar thing happened in the 3rd IR. Oerth was under threat from Vecna and the goodly factions in the Alliance of Oerth needed to get 10th level magic as quickly as possible to counter that threat. So they looked to their most powerful ally, Forrester of the Torillian Commonwealth, and directly gave of their own power to give him 10th level magic. Forrester defeated Vecna and the horrors he had unleashed and then he was pulled in (mostly against his will because everyone still needed him so) into becoming the judge, jury and executioner of the IR. The Evil factions (including my own) looked on in hatred and disgust, and the Good factions became increasingly frustrated with their own situation in the shadow of Forrester and the fact that they themselves had enabled him to reduce them to a lesser degree of relevance. Few people, not including Forrester himself, were very happy with the situation.

(That's my interpretation of the situation and everybody's posts about it. My perspective is not the only one, or the most correct one. And I intend no offense to anyone, because nobody was truly to blame, the situation simply got rather difficult.)

I know that you are perfectly capable of finding ways around the intent of my rules, there's not one stupid person among us, but allowing that trait would make it too easy for you. The consequences, which you'll see if you translate my example into your own situation in this IR, would be negative for the game.

Some thinking aloud: Your output is Industry and the number of PPs you generate, basically. So what is trade with other countries? The scale actually seems large enough for business to matter a little (hey, each turn is a quarter!), but on the other hand, not matter that much. Probably best to keep it abstract. Although it occurs to me that one way to represent trade is to voluntarily trade some control of a territory. So the Kevelond League gets 1 point of a territory of the Baklunish league and Baklun gets 1 point of a territory. There's no real benefit to either side, but it makes the co-dependent and might be a good sign of trust, a gesture of goodwill, a strengthening of bonds, etc., etc. It may or may not be worth doing in any case. Any other thoughts on the matter?

You can hand over territory to each others, but your population would probably resent being traded around like cattle. Recently conquered populations might not care, or if they care that won't make much difference.

Most countries trade with each others on a capitalistic level, between individuals. It is abstracted and reflected in the general productivity of your provinces. Under normal, peaceful, conditions it will be assumed that there is a certain level of internal and international trade. In times of war, or other times of chrisis, trade will be affected and recessions may occurr under any circumstance. The IC of your provinces will perhaps fluctuate a little, but that's minor and need not really cause any serious concern. Ignore it if you want, I'll probably forget about it. (No big deal. It's only brought up because you asked about it )

Edena- Thanks for the historical and first-hand view of trying to run this thing. I like to think I would have been careful and polite before, but I must admit I never actually thought real hard about the out of game logisitics of the IR. Thanks again to Serpenteye, doghead, William Ronald, Edena, and everyone else who takes some time to pitch in.

And thank you too for helping.

As an aside, I'm assuming anyone who made their e-mails available to be contacted about the IR doesn't object to having them up; as I eventually figured out from others on this board, the logic runs that there are programs scanning messageboards and other likely places for e-mail addresses and adding them to spam lists, and they can be fooled by changing the usual [username]@[domain].com format. So by all means, feel free to post the e-mail addresses in this list I compiled, but on this messageboard I've picked up the habit of [dot]ing my .s and [at]ing my @s.

Edit:

Something to add about e-mails, other messageboards, and assorted private communication: these boards, with the spoiler (which creates blacked-out text) and sblock tags (which creates a hideable/revealble section like I've been using for the e-mail list to save scrolling) can also be used. So if I wanted to send a secret message to Iuz, I could do this:

...

The disadvantage of this is that, while no one can see what I've written to Iuz (assuming we're all good boys and girls and don't peek), they can see that I have communicated with Iuz. I also consider having stuff on the boards a virtue, so historians without access to individual e-mail accounts can reconstruct things post-apocalypse.

I should ask, Serpenteye, 'cause I've been wondering: do you want to see our inter-player communication? You have to read it, which is more work, but it might save you from being blindsided. The main reason I mention it, really, is that spying on someone generally include knowing whom they diplomacize with; I think it would be cool if Infiltrators got forwarded the occasional e-mail. I had assumed you would want to, and my plan was to e-mail the player in question and then post the correspondence under [sblock] tags with a "GM's eyes only" note. It ends up on the board, and the GM knows what I said, but no one but he and the recipient knows who the recipient is.

This might be a good way to do all GM-player secret communication, since it means Serpenteye doesn't get deluged with e-mails.

It would be best if everything but the most secret of plans eventually found their way to the IR-threads, for the sake of making it a good read, but you don't have to post your semi-IC conversations and negotiations on the board.

I only really need to be told what you have agreed to and with whom and only if you believe you need me to know. If I don't know something I'll do nothing about it and if that's what you want that's what you'll get.
Not that I will blab about your plans to anyone or in the thread itself, of course, by my brain can only hold so much information.

Generally I'd have to say your PCs are powerful and cunning enough to find ways to talk to each others without spies finding out about it (unless you want them to find out about it, or are being sloppy). But as soon as you put anything into motion as soon as it goes from talk to action you will have to tell me, or it simply will not happen.

That could be fun. I don't have much experience with those factions of Oerth that are left. (well few I am, but they are the minor ones).
Heavenly empire oriental theme is pretty cool, but also something that would need a bit more information to on for me. I am not really informed about oriental mythos.

Some of those off-map factions might be cool too, not much is know so we'd need to ask Serpentseye what he has determined about them, and how much is up to players.

I like Lyrn myself, must be the name. Can be claim that one?

If we play good faction I presume we get our ass handled to us very soon.

Never know though, these things are unpredictable.

Well, unless you want sometthing more "on-map" I'd like to claim following:

The Celestial Imperium (Major faction) (Off-map to the west) (Neutral)
Lyrn (Major faction) (Off-map, WAY to the west) (Unknown)
Ishtarland (major faction) (Off-map, westward) (Unknown)

(it's just shot in the dark, they just happen to be western. problem is that they are all major factions, not sure if that's too much)

That's too much for anyone, sorry. No player will get a claim that powerful granted. You can pick one and Airwhale can pick one, but that way you'd still be two separate factions. You could cooperate with each others but you couldn't share everything.

Feel free to make up anything you want about your faction (within reason). That goes for all players, because 20 years have passed since the current official time in Greyhawk. A lot could have happened since then. (But please keep the really outrageous stuff to the IR itself. )

Serpenteye, it is necessary to create an SN on Nothingland to PM me there.
Once you have created an SN, just find a thread of mine there (there is one in the Traditional Games forum, and it is about this 5th IR) and click on my SN. Then you will see the option of PMing me.
Until you do that, I cannot communicate privately with you.
I would like to privately communicate with you as soon as possible.

I am still working on getting an e-mail. Effort ongoing.

I am struggling to understand the rules on page 13. The rules are not clear to me on a number of points (but this reflects on ME, not you ... and the obligation is on me to understand, obviously.)
I will do my best to learn the rules, and to ask the minimum number of questions.
I'm still going to totally mess up on Turn 1, I'm guessing.
I feel like I did when I played my first game of D&D back in 1977, and it was all fun and new and exciting (and terrifying, too) and I didn't really know what I was doing at all!

Serpenteye, I am staggered at what you have taken on. And how calmly you are taking the initial pressure and set-up. It is nothing short of astounding, and you have my genuine kudos.

And Guilt Puppy, I am staggered by that map. Gods, that have been a lot of work to set up. And setting up still. I'm rather humbled. The amount you and others are putting into this: I'm just staggered. All I can say again is: kudos to you.

I will do what I can to convince someone to play the Kevellond League (and Lortmil League and Ulek States if possible) and the Nyrond-Urnst Confederation. And Greyhawk. I think it is very important that someone play those countries. I really do.
And if I cannot do so ... well (and LISTEN UP, FOLKS) I am guessing that you, Serpenteye, will play those powers VERY AGGRESSIVELY (read: some of us are going to get SQUASHED) starting on Turn 1.
Why?
Because if ... I ... were running those greatly threatened Powers, I would play aggressive! The best defense is a good offense, and those powers are certainly on the defense!

So, guys, think about it: either we get someone to play them who may or may not play them quietly and carefully ... or Serpenteye plays them, and he uses them to NUKE us on Turn 1. Which would you prefer, folks?
And if you don't believe Serpenteye would do just that, think again. I ran the 3rd IR, and he was one of the most aggressive players in the game. He and Mr. Draco made the Union of Oerth into the great power it was.
In other words, SOMEONE NEEDS TO PLAY THE KEVELLOND LEAGUE, LORTMIL LEAGUE, ULEK STATES, AND THE NYROND-URNST CONFEDERATION. BEFORE SERPENTEYE GETS HIS GREEDY HANDS ON THEM!!!

Just a thought there ...

Now, I've got to go back and read the rules on page 13 again. (and again, and again, until I understand them. I won't totally understand them, and I will learn my mistakes soon enough, in the actual game! And that's ok, and how it should be. Or, at least, how it always is, with a new game! (sheepish look))

Heh, . Thanks for reminding me about Nothingland, it had totally slipped my mind. Feel free to ask if there's anything in the rules that's unclear to you. If I've espressed myself oddly I need to know so that I can simplify and make it more understandable.

Thanks for the compliment.
But not all rulers are as aware of the world as you players are. Some of them are conservative or confused, overly proud or overly cautious, and won't truly understand what's going on, what's changed and how.
Other NPCs know just as much as you do. They know exactly how the world works and they are ambitious and powerful enough to act on that knowlege. They are the ones to look out for. Some of them will be obvious threaths, and others will bide their time...

Take a look at this map: http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif

As you can see, both the Empire of Lyrn and the Celestial Imperium are HUGE empires, each the size of the entire Flanaess!
I believe both are Major Factions. Powerful Factions.

And I'm guessing ... guessing! ... that Serpenteye will only allow you to choose one of them, because they are such Major Factions.

He may or may not allow one of you to also have smaller Ishtarland. I don't know. (Note the nearby lesser but still large nations of Enllaves (the Tribes of), the Red Kingdom, the Tharquish Empire and the Tarquis Dominions ... I don't know if any of these are claimed, or what their power level is.)

All I can say is this:

I would feel whelmed just playing one Major Faction (I am playing one Major Faction: the Drow of the Flanaess, and I AM feeling whelmed, since I'm still studying the rules on page 13 with great frustration.)
I wouldn't dream of claiming 2 or more Factions. I don't think my nervous system could handle it. I mean: yes, I once ran the 3rd IR. But since then it seems ... well, let's just say I admit to being a newbie all over in this 5th IR, and do not presume to know anything until it is knocked through my thick skull!
I most certainly wouldn't attempt to claim 3 Factions. I'd have a nervous breakdown. The rules on page 13 clearly indicate it would be a paperwork nightmare.

So, Zelda, I'd claim Lyrn and the Celestial Imperium and Ishtarland at my peril. I wouldn't do it. I couldn't do it! Maybe you can do it (anyone who can speak and type fluent Finnish AND fluent English is a lot brighter than Yours Truly, and I mean that), and Serpenteye will let you, but I sure couldn't do it in your shoes!

- - -

Airwhale ...

If there is a western faction you'd like, you could divy up the western nations with Zelda.

Do not believe that being far to the west makes you safe! That is not true!
Out of sight is NOT out of mind. Anyone can look at the map above and see where your country is! And they WILL.
We will not sit around and let you develop 10th level magic and nukes while we do nothing. No way! It isn't going to be that easy for you!

Quite right... But you can only share one Major power.

General Power Level Concern: I agree with Forsaken One, I think a more...sedate pace and power level might be in order in this IR (based solely on my reading of the 3rd IR) - I'd much rather have a game where we each spent long turns trying to get our plans in motion and achieve our ends rather than a nukefest of some sort. Disorderly factions having to spend power to move and being resistant to outside influence sounds fun.

That's my preference as well.
Keep in mind that Epic PLs will be quite limited for most factions from the start and that it takes time to upgrade enough Regular PLs to make a difference. Your Epic and Elite PLs will be your most valuable asset, and using them frivolously is taking a dangerous risk. They can be killed by a lucky blow from a Regular army, and there's no raising the dead for anyone in the beginning of the game. Without them as a mobile reserve your faction will be very vulnerable. Perhaps most fighting is best left to the relatively expandable Militias and Regulars?
10th level magic is expensive, and noone will have enough resources to get it within the first few turns.

Researcher trait: I think that might be a bit too scary, seeing how (as I understand it) certain nations will already be getting bonuses to their magic of various flavors thanks to the Arcane or Clerical (or did I misread/misremember?) traits. Stacking something like that would be obscene, though I think that there should be corresponding (but rare, who on Oerth has it besides Murlynd?) trait for technology.

(You misremembered. It's a lot to keep track on, huh? )
Researching technology or magic are the mains way to increase your power in the IR. Infiltration, by contrast, is only really viable as the main source of power for a handful of factions. It's relatively expensive for normal factions, but it enables a traditional DnD niche to be filled by giving the trait to a few underground organizations.

Now, I've got to reread the rules too. Because it's all Greek to me, and I barely speak Frat.

Can I clarify in any way?

Regardless, I think that once you see the rules in play most of you will catch on pretty quick. Turn 1 will be a test-run for all of us. (A test-run of deadly serious chaotic fun, but a test-run nevertheless. )

That aside. Oriental-esque is not really my thing.
Since I am considering joining forces with Airwhale, it might still be interesting to have more than one land between two players. Not that they have to be both major. Just kind of being more safe than sorry. Other players might chime in and grab all that's left.

...

And Edena, hehe, my English is far from good.

Any one of the Major nations of the west will make you two quite powerful.
If you want to play two factions and be closely allied you can do that, but I don't want you to be too strong from the start.

The nations in the inlands will be mostly desert or dry plains, because there's such a long distance to the sea, but they make up for it in size.

...

And your English is good enough. As good or better than my own.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on the rules, for the most part (this is not surprising, as I seem to have a strange ability to learn game systems really quickly. Which is why I gotta ask: How come I'm no good at math, memorizing dates, or languages? ). If it's OK with serpenteye, I (or anyone else who thinks they understand) could field questions; the worst that happens is that we get it wrong and Serpenteye has to answer anyway, and if we're right or even mostly right it'll save him some work.

In that spirit, Creamsteak, I'll answer your question:

Great. Thanks. And your answer is correct, so yes; You can be my rules-answer-guy. (As can anyone else who's pretty sure their answer is right, discussion is a great help to facilitate understanding.)

The one thing I'm a little fuzzy on is nature of PL's. I think there are some slight gaps in the rules that need to be filled in, but it's easily enough done.

If I've got it right:

At the beginning of a turn, we get a certain number of PP's, as determined by how developed our territories are and how much control we have over them, as capped by our tech level and the population. Also at the beginning of the turn, we earmark things for certain uses, those being:

Military: You can use PPs to convert your population into Regular units.
Industrialization: You can use PPs to increase production in your territories.
Tech: You can use PPs to increase your tech level.

Quite right.

Once this is done, the turn proper commences. This is where things start to get fuzzy. You talk about "spending" PL's of various levels (you spend PL's to infiltrate a faction, Regular PLs to create Elite PLs, Elite PLs to create Epic PLs, and epic PLs to research magic). But these PL's refer to people. In terms of magic, as you've explained, this makes sense: the people in question are killed or seriously injured in the researching. But what about when upgrading military units? Does it really kill off, or cause the disbandment of, the other 9 units of 2-6 level people to get the one unit of 7-16 level people? That's one hell of a training regimen . What about infiltration? Do you sacrifice regular military units in order to send spies in?

PLs make sense when they mean something other than military units, but the only point in the process that you've listed to turn PPs into PLs is when you recruit some of your populace to become professional soldiers. Really, it seems to me not so much a point of confusion about how the rules work as noticing that you seem to have forgotten a passage. You even wrote later:

... (This is hard...)

Ehh, true. The prospect of killing off tens of thousands of your soldiers to train a handful of them into Epics would be unpalatable to most factions. Even if PL also represents your wealth and equipment most of it will always be in the form of the mortal flesh of your soldiers.
I wrote the rule with the intention that your production should not be immediately convertable into high-level individuals. One million tons of grain does not an archmage make, though it can feed and pay an army. And I wanted there to be a delay for mechanical reasons too, to make the factions more different from each others and to make it less attractive to max-out industrialization and then put everything at once into getting Epic PLs and 10th level spells. Hmm, what to do, what to do?

Let's say that the training regimen is very demanding. The only way to learn new skills and abilities in DnD is to gain experience points. The main way of gaining experience points, as it is presented in the DnD rules, is killing things... (and the reasoning breaks down... It would lead to the position that Epic PLs could only be given to armies that had survived hundreds of battles against an enemy of 1/4 of their strength... Absurd, and a nightmare of paperwork.)

Sorry.
I do not know how to explain this in a logical way, nor do I know how to change the rules so that they would make sense. I'm afraid the only way the rules would make sense from every possible perspective is that they were made ten times as complicated.

Let's say that a lot of the soldiers flunk-out of Elite-school, those who survive it) turn to drinking and become useless bums. Eh no...

I've got it! Eureka! It's expensive, very very expensive, to train Elite and Epic soldiers or breed and raise Elite and Epic monsters. So expensive, in fact, that you cannot afford to maintain your army in its current strength (having an army is expensive, though this is also abstracted). You cannot afford to pay or feed all your soldiers or to maintain their weapons and supply them with ammunition, clothing, toothbrushes, wenches, spirits and so on. So some of them will have to be sent home. But since you've still spent a lot of money to keep them in the army you don't get any PPts back when you send them home.
You can only train people who already have the basic required skills, thus only Regulars or Elites respectively, and you have to train a lot of people to get a small number of graduates. And yes, the training regimen is very demanding and a lot of those who enter it are killed or physically and mentally crippled.

It's not perfect, but the best I could do on a not-so-short notice. *whew!*

I do realize that it's unpalatable, especially for the Goodly factions (who we happen to need a lot more of :\) , but you don't have to role-play it that way...

And yes, it costs people, as well as money, to Infiltrate your enemies. Espionage is a deadly business.

I wrote the first part of this post before I went back and read this one of yours. So the wording above may be a little off, but I think the idea it may bear returning to. As is, PLs represent People as well as Resources, which means it's a little wonky to "spend" them at a rate of 10-to-1 in order to get better people or spies. I'm trying to think of a way to tweak this (although you may disagree about the need to tweak it) that's elegant. Would it be too complex to be able to "stockpile," converting PP into the "magic items and hard cash" form of PL without throwing population into the mix?

Or perhaps that's what you do every time you create a PL (which is to say, you create some form of useful material wealth) and making regular armies is in fact the process of combining a PL and some population (whatever it is, magic item or gold, it's sold and the money used to make weapons). Of course, when the population is destroyed (i.e, killed in battle) the PL is lost because the equipment is destroyed too. I think I like this best.

The way things would work under this system:

Replace the "military" step of the before-the-turn actions with the "stockpile" step. PPs are converted into PLs as usual. People have a certain amount of PL hanging around as a matter of course. Still at the beginning of the turn, you earmark some of your PL to be wed to some of your population to create military units. Like before when you could spend PP to get regular PLs, you can only do this at the beginning of your turn. Any other PLs you keep.

If you disband a military unit, the PL remains. To convert a low-level military unit to a higher-level military unit, you spend unwed PL's. You would spend 9 PLs to turn a Regular "unit" (which replaces PL when referring to armies) into an Elite unit (for a total cost of 10) and you would spend 90 PLs to turn an elite unit into an Epic unit (totalling 100 PL). This represents spending money on training as much as anything else, which is why you can't just disband an epic unit and get the PLs back (at least until you research a spell to turn their XP into GP ). Infiltration requires a similar expenditure of loose PLs.

Magic costs loose PLs for research costs, and should require the presence of Epic units (you need to have 1 epic unit for each 100 PL you want to spend in a turn), and maybe a lesser expenditure thereof. For example, say expenditure is 90% PL, 10% Epic unit. Reaching the 10th level mark still costs 5000 PLs worth of effort, but that's 4,000 PL spent and 10 Epic units sacrificed to accidents.

I should have read this part first. It's actually quite good. It wouldn't add a lot of complication to the system to add one more step in the creation of PLs and one more variable to the research of magic. I would have to use another word for it to reduce confusion, or I could just widen my definition of Power Points.
Now I feel like an idiot. But that's a good thing, indicative of the quality of our players. Kudos.

(I'm not being sarcastic here, though I realize I may seem that way because I'm tired, have a head-ache and don't feel too bright right now. You have made a real and constructive contribution to this game Thomas, and I'm grateful for that.)

On another note:

Edena, all the e-mails on my list (which is, I assume, where you got yours) were posted on this thread when asked for contact. I assume you've got permission to repost them on the same thread- or at least, I hope so, 'cause I sure did.

You, any and all of you, have my permission to post your own E-mails to this thread, or repost the personal E-mail that someone else has posted on this thread.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Okay, I need to read the whole thread so that I'm up on the rules, but I think I like the idea of combining two faction/ideas, so I'm thinking a hidden cabal of powerful psionics behind a current faction (which faction, well, I haven't read enough to decide).

Give me a day or so and I'll be able to be more specific.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

How about this?

Gallador`s Concord: Gallador The Undying King, Master of The Night Eternal is an ancient Vampire who was banished to the Underdark centuries ago . For ages ha has waged a war of conquest and deception, and now with the current dramatic events, his attention is brought back to the surface world!

I would claim:

-Duergar( they have autonomy, but their leaders are bribed, terrorized and compelled by Gallador, like Roman divide and conquer)

-Kua -Toa

-Goblinoids and other servitor races not yet claimed by Creamsteak or Edena.

-Court of The Eternal Night!- Vampire Children of Gallador, organized in feudal/dynastic system-power is usually based on proximity to Gallador, like generations in Vampire RPG).

Lesser Undeath Armies.

 

[Serpenteye]

Thanks for the nice comments, all... Been working on it more, and while it ain't bug-free, I think the next edition is ready to show off ... http://www.rowf.net/ir/maptest/map-view.php will be the map that players ought to be looking at (map-edit is useful for serp, on the other hand.)

I noticed Edena made a comment about "jigsaw puzzle" infiltration... Not sure if it's in direct reference to the map or not, but it reminds me of something I've been meaning to bring up: I hope this map will be a useful tool, but in no way do I want or intend for it to influence actual game mechanics. Meaning I assume and hope that serp is keeping his own track of territories owned and conquered, in a manner which can be more or less detailed as the case warrants... So just because, to stick with the example, the 12 drow cities aren't separated by black lines and filled in with color, shouldn't mean that they aren't unique places, or that they can only be infiltrated/conquered all-at-once. The map should be useful for visualization and for reference, but by no means is it intended to be a game board or other definitive description of the state of the game.

Just wanted to put that out there. I've just had this terrible nagging feeling that I'd end up going down in history as the guy who reduced the 5th IR to a clunky game of Risk.

Updated to-do list:
- Some "broken" territories still need fixing. I've gone so far as to identify different levels of broken-ness, which only complicates the matter.
- Update the faction names & colors once a the list is complete (big applause for those who are currently working on assembling that info)
- Get a better list of territory names -- if anyone spots something incorrect, or has better names for certain territories, let me know!
- Have a non-dynamically-served (but still always-up-to-date) world map available for viewing, to eat less cycles and hopefully avoid angering my webhost.
- Password-protect map-edit for serp
- Fix zooming bugs
- Add driving directions and a dining guide

I think this to-do list is actually longer than the last one... Hate how that happens.

Anyway, I'll give a background/bio of the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Elder Brothers later... for now, I need to head back to my own game and try to catch up on that

The map is a very useful tool. But no, it won't influence the game mechanics, though it will make the game easier for everyone. Just because something's not on the map doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There will be lists for all that.

My last post of the night: I am really tired. It's 2 in the morning, and I should have been in bed 3 hours ago.

James, thanks again for the gmail offer. I may take you up on it. Let me see if I can establish my own e-mail address tomorrow. I appreciate your offer! I may yet use it! Tomorrow will decide it: tomorrow I will attempt to create a standard e-mail address with my local ISRP.

Creamsteak, I simply do not have an e-mail address. I never created a new one after moving into temporary quarters before moving to Florida.
As I just told James, I will rectify that tomorrow. Dealing with the local ISRP will be most annoying, but I think I can manage it. I hope!

I'm very fearful, folks, that Serpenteye will be overwhelmed and burn out. I (and Creamsteak) appreciate the overwhelming challenge of running an IR, and I am trying to give all the support I can to Serpenteye, in the form of direct information and indirect support in trying to help other players. I can't do much, but I can try, and every little bit helps.

William has stated he can be there, to a limited extent, for Serpenteye.
William says he will be glad to be a source of campaign information for the setting for Serpenteye, should Serpenteye have any questions on Greyhawk names, places, and history. William has a real knack for history and names!!!
William is also very worried that Serpenteye will be whelmed and burn out, and wants to give what support he can.

Could one of you relate that William wants to be supportive in this way to Serpenteye, so Serpenteye will know he has some backing there, and help there?

Both I and William really want to make this thing work. We know you do also. So, we are just doing our best to try and help, in what little ways we can.
It's already taking it out of me - you might note my posts tonight are febrile, because I am very stressed out and tired and somewhat rattled - but I will stay in there and plug for Serpenteye and this IR, and fight to make it work and be fun for all of us.
Even if I cannot figure out the rules, make a total embarrassment of myself on Turn 1, and get squashed into red goo!!

Please remember all those powers yet unclaimed:

The Kevellond League (Good)
Nyrond-Urnst-Iron League Alliance (Good)
Lortmil Alliance (Good)
Ulek League (Good)
Zingia (Unknown, off-map to the south)
The Solistarim (Evil, northwesternmost part of map)
All those others given by Serpenteye, such as Lynn (spelled it right this time, I hope.)

I think, and this is just my opinion, that the more the merrier. And it would enhance the IR if the remaining on-map powers were claimed.
I have already claimed the drow, so I can't claim another power. It wouldn't make sense for me to claim practically any other power anyways, since the drow are opposed to most other factions. So, I'm sticking with the drow.

Good night, everyone. See you in the afternoon my time, tomorrow!

Edena_of_Neith

I may be on fire, but I'm not burning out.

I really do appreciate all your (players in general specific) help. Even though I have quite a decent knowledge about the setting I'm finding that my time is too limited to do much studying of all the various sites. Most of my IR-time is spent answering posts, and by doing so analyzing and learning my own rules and getting to know the players better.
I will contact you on Nothingland, I will make a list of the factions and the IC of the territories, I will edit the rules becuase Thomas' suggestions had a lot of merit, and I will post a new thread because this one is becoming too long. There's a great deal of things that I have to do. And I will do them all in due time.

Hello, everyone:

I have been busy contacting people, and e-mailed everyone I could from the previous IRs. While I don't know if I have recruited anymore players, one former IR player of note let me know he will try to stop by. (I am not revealing whom, but I think all the old IR players will recognize this mover and shaker.)

Also, while we are fine tuning things, we could make claims on behalf of future players. I suspect if we wait another week, which seems to be the case, we will likely have more people show up. (In the build up to the 3rd IR, I held onto a few things just for new people. As I recall, Sollir Furryfoot and Uvenelei ended up gaining a lot of those territories.) So, hopefully a few more people will show up before we start. (Creamsteak has finals, and we can probably use a little more time to fine tune things. Plus, I want to make sure that Serpenteye has the time he needs. I don't want anyone to burn out.)

Great work, WR, thanks .

A question for Serpenteye on quasi-deities and demi-deities. Are they available for players to claim, as there is one on the map already? There is one Baklunish demi-deity who might be appropriate to claim. If not, no great deal.

Also, is the nation of Esmerin (giants and halflings, mentioned briefly in the LGG) available? Darkness had it in his Baklunish Confederation, which was kind of a neutral to good faction.

Generally quasi and demi-deities would be unwilling to join a faction as subordinates, but would be more than pleased at the opportunity to lead a major faction by themselves (or at least as the most important of many). It's not a matter of alignment, for the most part, but of pride. Humble deities are few and far between.

Esmerin? (I remember that one) Is it on either of the maps? Then yes. If it's not on any map, then no it cannot be claimed until we've sold out on more attractive real-estate.

It also might be a good idea to have a preliminary PL list, and have an upper starting limit like Edena did in the 3rd IR. (Under Edena's system, I think the upper limit in turn 1 was about 100 -120 PLs.) Some small factions, like Rhialto's Black Brotherhood, were very effective with low PLs. So, I think the infiltrator organizations will have a role to play -- they may well have very different agendas from each other and perhaps some professional rivalry. (In Eberron, the House that controls espionage split into two.)

I expect Serpenteye's Vecna to be quite terrifying. And I am looking forward to it.

Also, here is a website for Greyhawk fans. The Living Greyhawk Homepage can be a great resource for learning about the Flanaess.

So, should I recap the events of the Greyhawk Wars up to the year 591 CY? (If this opens 20 years after the end of the Greyhawk Wars, the game will start in Common Year 604.) Everyone, try to recruit someone.

Since I'm assigning PLs and ICs after I've assigned territories (shouldn't do that I know, but that's the way it works out) I only have to keep in mind the general power of a territory in question before I allow anyone to claim too much. I've already had to turn several claims and suggestions to claims down for the sake of balance. There's no set limit, since I decide on a case to case basis.

Please do write a recap of the history of the Grewhawk Wars and the aftermath. That's information all of us could benefit from and it's better to have it here than off-site.

On the topic of Vecna: ...

Also, from reading the rules (which may require a little more tinkering) I would like to propose that the unofficial motto of the IR could well be: Ad astra, per aspera. (Latin: To the stars, through difficulty. Or loosely translated, if you want something great, expect to work hard for it -- one way or another.)

A little tinkering? Indeed, it does seem that they are difficult to understand for a lot of our players. Ahh... It's a work in progress.

I just (via e-mail) tried to enticed a player of mine to join through a combination of threatening to break his knees and offering him XP. I promise to not use these to influence him if he actually plays. He loves Machiavelli, which means he's a good bet to play, although he make take some persuading to play any of the large good leagues . Maybe he'll grab a neutral one.

Anyway,

I already have Celene; if I had known the Ulek states were elven, I would've offered already. Apparently, I need to research more. If nobody else wants them, consider them claimed.

Can't hurt and will almost definitely help.

Thanks again to Edena, doghead, WR, others, and most of all Serpenteye who are doing lots to get this thing to work.

Break his knees. That way he will have more time to play the game...

I would want the player of the Lortmils to get the Uleks, they fit better together racially and geographically, but if we get no player of the Lortmils they're yours.
Hmm, would that make you too powerful since you're the only player who has access to significant amounts of druidic magic? ... Nah, I guess not.

(Thanks )

Lots of posts here. Okay:

1. I have practically no knowledge of the world of Greyhawk or the Circle of Eight (other than there's actually 9 of them, and there's Mordenkainen etc.). Don't know if I'm supposed to stat them or list their levels or something (some people seemed to do this). Or make/choose on as a PC (like Iuz). I'm pretty sure that they're epic though...

2. I'm somewhat confused about the rules, but I think I got the general idea. So one needs to sacrifice epic PLs (=units/characters) to research 10th level magic? Not good, I need to whip up some disposable armies. No way I'm changing the faction name to "The Circle of Three" or something after the first turn.

3. You can present my e-mail in the real format.

Well, If I can go just claiming areas and it's close, then I quess I could claim it. Especially since there seem to be drow hanging around my mountains...

1. You only need detailed knowlege about the characters in question for the purpose of RP, I'll consider them all Epic cause they're major characters in the setting and presumably close enough in level.

2. It may or may not work that way, entirely. I'll have to look over those rules again.

3. Good.

Besides, my territory is freaking huge already. I already said that though, let it be said again.

True. You're already powerful.
-
All places on the map need not be claimed. What's important is that most significant areas on the main continent are claimed. Not all pieces of Oerth are particularly civilized or even important.

Well... I must admit I'm starting to feel guilty for taking on a minor, and in many ways counter-productive (since I'm actually adding another faction rather than being helpful and taking one on) faction when I have the time and inclination to do a lot more. So - assuming at this stage it would still be more help than harm for me to do so, I will allow the Shepherds in Darkness to fade gracefully back into the recesses of my imagination, and take on the Kevellond League instead. They sound interesting to me from what I've seen fo their doings in the 3rd IR.

*scurries off to read vast amounts of Greyhawk information*

EDIT: Ummm... google searches for 'Kevellond League' are returning nothing except pages from the 3rd IR. Is it something invented for that? What provinces is it made up of? How can I find out more about it?

You don't have to think in those terms. What's more helpful than anything else is having fun and playing your faction well. As long as you do that you're not being counter-productive. You can play whatever you would enjoy the most. Nobody has the right to pressure you into anything, not even I.
Now, if you really want to play the Kevellond League that's great too. You're in for quite an intense game as a Major power with a great potential but a lot of dangerous neigbours. It will not get boring (unless I up completely )
William Ronalds and Edena know a lot about the League, but you're free to put your own flavour to the mix.

William played it in the 3rd IR so you might wanna talk to him about it. He's quite serious and thourough in conducting his RPing buiseness. Allthough his speeches are kinda long now and then

on another note:

Serpenteye might want to start up a new thread. With the Player and the factions they choose as first post and the rules in the second post. Then we dont have to scroll back to find them the whole time and it's more easy to keep up with a thread and find where you left off it it's under 10 pages.

Just a friendly piece of advice

TFO out

Long but full of substance.

I think I do want that, yes. Good advice.

 

[Paxus Asclepius]

Melkor: Most of the goblinoid servitor races actually fall under the purview of the Wolf God. Any that you could find would be from the deepest parts of the Underdark, such as quaggoth or grimlocks.

 

[The Forsaken One]

So, read up till here. Just a marking post for me to know where to start reading again tomorrow Gnight all.

 

[Eluvan]

Alright. I've done some reading, and in the spirit of community and helping out the IR in general (well, that and I think it would be cool ) I hereby relinquish my claim to the Sepherds of Darkness. Instead I would like to claim Keoland, the Gran March, the Duchy of Ulek, and Sterich - collectively, the League of Athyr. I don't want to take the Kevellond League per se because, as Anabstercorian said, it would be nice to pay the 3rd IR the respect it deserves and then move on and come up with our own ideas. If anyone feels that I've screwed this up (or my understanding of the politics and geography of the area is somehow flawed), please tell me and I'll revise my ideas. I realise that most everybody else here knows more about the setting than I do, so any and all input is appreciated. Similarly, if people have a problem with the Kevellond League failing to make an appearance in this IR, tell me and I'll start over.

PC: Arden Leonson, King Arden I of Keoland and High Councillor of the League of Athyr, Human Paladin 32

Following the Greyhawk War, Keoland was left in sorry shape. Once the most powerful and influential land in the entirety of the Sheldomar valley, in the war that was to shape the future of much of the Flanaess it had no cohesive policy and achieved nothing. In negotiations, the leader's indecisiveness proved sufficient to ensure that Keoland's allies were overrun whilst King Skotti dithered and wondered whether to interfere. Militarily, the once-great land suffered losses and humiliations on all sides and lost territory and influence.

Post-war, the land found itself in a weaker position than it had been for many years since. It badly needed time to rebuild and regenerate its economy, and confidence in the country's rulers was low after their mistakes in the war. When Skotti was assassinated in a plot by Cedrian of Dorlin to take the throne, the country descended into civil war. The noble houses squabbled amongst themselves for power, and for some time disorder reigned.

When finally this was curtailed, it occurred in dramatic fashion. Arden Leonson, the youngest son of a minor noble house in the Gran March, marched into Niole Dra with a small but resplendent contingent of knights and, nervous but determined, stood up in the town square and announced that he had been sent a vision from Heironeous showing him that he must unite Keoland under his banner and restore order and greatness to the country once again. He spoke with courage, power, and conviction, but of course it amounted to very little. He stood no chance of convincing the people that mattered that he should be handed control of the country.

He persevered, however. At first he had little success. But on the occassion of his seventh speech in the capital of Keoland, his divine mandate was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. As he spoke, the clouds above him parted and a sunbeam reached down to touch him. Bathed in divine radiance he continued his speech with ever-increasing fervour, and as he did so his audience watched stunned as a Celestial host numbering several hundred descended and knelt behind him, bowing their heads to the young knight.

The result was electric. Word travelled across the country lightning-fast that a messiah had come, a Paladin with a divine mandate to rule the country. Supporters flocked to him, and though he still had a struggle ahead of him, he eventually succeeded in taking the Throne of the Lion and restoring peace and order to the land, as well as using his heritage to reforge strong links with the Gran March.

He did not rest long on his laurels, however. He led the country wisely and well, and under his leadership it prospered once again. In his third year on the throne, as the country's affairs were once again seeming in order, disaster struck as the creatures overruning Sterich set their sights on eastward expansion. The County of Flen and the March of Mandismoor came under attack, and it was all the Keoish forces could do to slow their relentless progress.

Arden made a spectacular speech asking for aid from his immediate neighbours, appealing to his already strong alliance with the Gran March and bidding the County of Ulek and the Duchy of Ulek to imagine how things would be if they were faced with the prospect of worrying not only about the Principlality's struggle against the Orcish hordes, but were faced with the immediate prospect of monstrous invasion from the West as well.

The Duchy of Ulek and the Gran March both responded by sending strong military forces to aid Keoland in their efforts to push the invaders back. The County of Ulek, however, perhaps feeling secure in its more remote location from Keoland, sent its sympathies but nothing else. The aid that was sent was enough, however, and the monstrous atatckers suffered a number of crushing defeats and wer epushed back. Feeling that the threat of the monsters of Sterich could no longer be allowed to exist on Keoland's doorstep, and that Keoland should make good on its obligation to aid Sterich in its time of need, Arden then launched a retributive crusade to push the evil creatures out of Sterich and allow its people to return home. He was successful, and with Keoland's help Sterich has been able to restore itself to some semblance of a functioning nation once again.

With the recent cataclysmic events, the alliance between these four lands has been renewed. The have each felt that they need an additional bulwark of strength in these times, and have rallied together under Arden's banner, calling themselves the Kingdom of Athyr, meaning 'phoenix' in the Celstial tongue. Revitalised and united under an extremely strong and charismatic leader, these lands now look set to play a major role in the unfolding events.

 

[Thomas Hobbes]

EDIT: Ummm... google searches for 'Kevellond League' are returning nothing except pages from the 3rd IR. Is it something invented for that? What provinces is it made up of? How can I find out more about it?

luvan, The 'Kevellond League' was an alliance of William's factions, consisting (IIRC) of Keoland, Gran Marc, The Duchy of Ulek, and the County of Ulek. It does not exist outside of the 3rd IR.

The Living Greyhawk Keoland website (which you kind find, among other things, at the link WR provided) has lots of useful information, including a brief overview that gives you everything you'll probably need to know, and the lots of specifics if you want to go in-depth. That's here. Also from the Living Greyhawk website William Ronald linked to is a .pdf made by the wizards folks, all about he Kingdom of Keoland. You can download that here. The gist of it is that Keoland was one big happy kingdom for a while, then was imperialistic for a while, and when that went sour went back to being a big happy kingdom. Gran March and the Uleks, among other territories, are provinces which Keoland lost direct control of, but it makes gobs of sense that they'd ally together into one faction.

I'm curous, If worshipers are cut off from there gods, how are Divine spellcasters reciving their spells. Normaly clerics (with the obvious exception of the cult of Iuz) would be limited to spells of 3rd level or less under these circumstances.

Where do you get the 3rd level figure, out of curiosity? 'cause if clerics get spells of even 3rd level, that would be nice. Means they get remove disease and create food and water, for example.

The problem is that those factions might manage to make themselves quite powerful by skillful play, and that every IC they captured would be twize as powerful for them as it would be for any other faction. It would encourage, or if the circumstances are pressing even force, other factions of similar alignment and apparent goals to clear the way for that Researcher faction, by directly or indirectly donating power to them.

Mmm. Good point. Perhaps it simply allows them to spend pure PLs, as opposed to sacrificing epic units. It's not much of a benefit (all they really save is the trouble of converting PLs to units to elite units to epic units), but it's there. Perhaps combined with the "Each epic unit counts this much more when casting epic spells" it could work. Again, I don't know if the magic factions actually need a boost.

Great. Thanks. And your answer is correct, so yes; You can be my rules-answer-guy.

Huzzah!

I should have read this part first. It's actually quite good. It wouldn't add a lot of complication to the system to add one more step in the creation of PLs and one more variable to the research of magic. I would have to use another word for it to reduce confusion, or I could just widen my definition of Power Points.
Now I feel like an idiot. But that's a good thing, indicative of the quality of our players. Kudos.

(I'm not being sarcastic here, though I realize I may seem that way because I'm tired, have a head-ache and don't feel too bright right now. You have made a real and constructive contribution to this game Thomas, and I'm grateful for that.)

Glad to be of service.

Perhaps PPs should be done away with altogether- it's all PL's (or you could call them PPs, I suppose) and you can either use them or not use them, but you can only use them for certain things (industry, tech, magic, regular units) at the beginning of a turn.

It may or may not be an issue, but you could theoretically have someone stockpile LOTS of PL's and suddenly research 4 years worth of Tech in 3 months... not likely. But you may want to say the maximum number of PL you can invest in any given turn in any given field is equal to your total PL production on a turn (so if you get 15 PL/turn faction-wide, you can invest a maximum of 15 PL each per turn in Industry, Technology, or Mobilization of your armies). This represents your maximum capacity for improvement. The rule doesn't disallow any rate of improvement that couldn't be achieved under the original system, and prevents large infusions of cash from buying everything. At least all at once.

You can hand over territory to each others, but your population would probably resent being traded around like cattle. Recently conquered populations might not care, or if they care that won't make much difference.

I figure it this way: Take the US and, say, China. In roleplaying terms, the two set up a trade agreement that gives Chinese companies more hold in the US stock market and the US companies are allowed to develop some of rural China.

In game terms, the US gives China partial control of a really highly developed area- say, New York City- with lots of IC (perhaps the maximum for the tech level). China gives US partial control of an underdeveloped, high-population area that's no where near full IC for the tech level. China gets a boost of PP's from it's new territory, and the US pours its resources into developing its new real estate, hoping to eventually make back their investment.

Or another situation: The US and a third-world nation. The third-world nation wants an army; the US wants access to the third-world nation's natural resources. They trade. In game terms, the US gives the third-world nation PLs which it turns into military units, and the third-world nation gives the US some control of a territory, which they then proceed to develop heavily.

 

[Bugbear]

Where do you get the 3rd level figure, out of curiosity? 'cause if clerics get spells of even 3rd level, that would be nice. Means they get remove disease and create food and water, for example.

From 1st/2nd edition AD&D, actualy. I don't recall if there is a 3rd edition rule for clerics cut off from there gods, but in earlier editions clerics were limited to low level spells (which were not granted by the deity itself) in situations like this.

 

[Eluvan]

A Cleric with no God gets no spells in 3E. It's that simple. The cleric's God is the source of their power.