Irreconcilable differences(Forked Thread: When did I stop being WotC's...)

[Irda Ranger]

Ok so Irda Ranger and I have close to the same opinion. Your point is?

I don't think he has a "point", I think it was purely a matter of keeping the thread of that little conversation in one easy to read post. Something I considered doing but was too lazy to.

Thanks Cadfan!

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Hasbro never had a sinister long term plan for D&D. Gaining ownership of D&D was just a side effect of purchasing WotC to gain control of the Pokemon CCG. Notice how Hasbro has done nothing with D&D outside of WotC.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Optional accessories that are not required to play the game, only one of which has a collectible element (primarily due to it being primarily focused on a related game, DDM), is supposed to be proof that D&D is no longer going to be a roleplaying game?

No, it's proof of the trend. Exploder Wizard was talking about where D&D is going, not where it is today. I provided evidence; those products are the canaries in the coal mine, so to speak.

But to directly refute one of your claims, all of those products have a collectible element. Even power cards, if you consider the need to "collect" splat books. Of course they are "optional", just like buying the next season of Magic cards is, right?

So, the list of things I need to play the game doesn't include the actual rules to the game (aka the books) or the random generation device that is used for the randomization element of the game (aka dice)?

Er? How is this relevant? The contention is that D&D could lead to a pure skirmish game, like Warhammer. Those games have rulebooks and dice too. What they lack is a roleplaying element, which is all we're sayin'.

Oh, the obligatory Magic reference to get a chuckle out of your other anti-4e buddies. How refreshing and original of you, Irda Ranger.

Original? I wasn't trying to be original. I'm not being "original" when I point out the sky is blue, after all, but I can still say it. 'cause it's true.

What's your coup de grace going to be, the obligatory "4e IZ WOW HUR HUR" claim?

No. I'm not 10. But thanks for dragging the thread down to that level.

Besides, I've never played WoW (or any MMORPG), so I wouldn't know.

 

[Rykion]

Dungeon Tiles
D&D Minis (both the rules & the plastic figures)
4E Power Cards

All you need to play D&D these days is a big table at your FLGS and some glass beads to track your HP. I've got my BlackOrcs deck with me.

That plus a few books and character sheets. Dice are also pretty much mandatory and a pencil comes in handy too. I know lots of people that play all kinds of RPGs at the big table at my FLGS.

Strangely enough miniatures, maps for use with the miniatures, and spell cards/feat cards/ability cards have come in handy for pretty much every edition of D&D. I guess it was never really a roleplaying game.

 

[The Little Raven]

No, it's proof of the trend. Exploder Wizard was talking about where D&D is going, not where it is today. I provided evidence; those products are the canaries in the coal mine, so to speak.

If accessories like gaming tiles are evidence of the game ceasing to be a roleplaying game, then the Dungeon Geomorphs and Outdoor Geomorphs published by TSR in 1976 are evidence of it, which means that it ceased to be a roleplaying game 30 years ago.

If accessories like power cards are evidence of the game ceasing to be a roleplaying game, then the Spell Cards sold in 2nd Edition are evidence of it, which means that it ceased to be a roleplaying game 15 years ago.

So, if TSR producing the same accessories that you claim turn the game into something other than a roleplaying game a long time ago, then I guess D&D hasn't been a roleplaying game for a long time... which, of course, is a completely ridiculous claim, just like the one you're making.

But to directly refute one of your claims, all of those products have a collectible element. Even power cards, if you consider the need to "collect" splat books.

This means that every edition of D&D to date is a collectible game then, so your fears about it changing into one are about 34 years too late. However, the actual point wasn't the collectability of materials, it was that the existence of these materials is somehow evidence of the game ceasing to be a roleplaying game, which is a completely bogus claim.

Of course they are "optional", just like buying the next season of Magic cards is, right?

Magic cards are the central point of the game. Minis, dungeon tiles, and power cards (which haven't even been published) are not the central point of D&D. The books are the central point. A new set of Magic cards is akin to a new book supplement, not a set of Dungeon Tiles or miniatures.

The contention is that D&D could lead to a pure skirmish game, like Warhammer.

The contention is that accessories that have been a part of the game for a decade at the least are turning it into a non-roleplaying game. A contention which has no actual evidence, just people repeating the same unsubstantiated point over and over again.

The contention is that D&D could lead to a pure skirmish game, like Warhammer. Those games have rulebooks and dice too. What they lack is a roleplaying element, which is all we're sayin'.

What you're saying makes so sense at all.

"All you need to play D&D these days is a big table at your FLGS and some glass beads to track your HP."

So, according to you, needing only (a) game materials, (b) a big table at my FLGS and (c) glass beads to track HP (for whatever reason, since they aren't necessary in any game) is evidence that D&D is moving towards being a non-roleplaying game?

So, following that "logic," the fact that all I need to play OD&D/1e/2e/3e is (a) game materials, (b) a big table at my FLGS and (c) glass beads to track HP (no reason I can't use the same game aid in any edition of the game) must mean that this trend you claim is new has existed for the game's entire lifespan.

Besides, I've never played WoW (or any MMORPG), so I wouldn't know.

Well, glad to see you have enough presence of mind not to try and argue from a position of complete ignorance, like so many others. It makes me think there's hope for you, yet.

 

[Maggan]

The contention is that D&D could lead to a pure skirmish game, like Warhammer.

Funnily enough, the Warhammer Fantasy Battle skirmish game led to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, my favourite RPG ever.

So I guess it might go both ways.

/M

 

[Rykion]

Funnily enough, the Warhammer Fantasy Battle skirmish game led to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, my favourite RPG ever.

So I guess it might go both ways.

/M

Not to mention Chainmail leading to D&D. Then D&D led to Battle System, and then DDM(also known as Chainmail), and then the collectible DDM.

GW was built on selling D&D and D&D related products to the UK. Warhammer Fantasy Battles was an extension of their D&D minis business.

Almost like there's a cycle.

 

[The Little Raven]

Almost like there's a cycle.

Whoa there, buddy, that's way too nuanced for an edition war. You take that logic and reason and find some other place to dump it!

 

[Minicol]

You are quite right. DDM and miniatures sales were down before the release of 4E. I would guess based on that fact, that D&D minis that were selling at all were to RPG groups and not skirmish groups. .
.

Can I add one thing ?

I bought initially a lot of them, and I was happy. They were bright and shiny. And most important, they were D&D !!!!!

Then after a while, I compared them to my reaper collection : yuck !!!! UGLY !

I stopped buying ANY of them. And I was ashamed of wasting money on these lumps of plastic. in fact the only reason I keep them at all, is that if my players smash them with their heavy metal d20, have them fall, or spill the Coca-Cola bottle on them, it is no big loss.

I believe the line would fare a LOT better if they were pleasant to the eye.

Of course, there are a few good ones in the lot. just not enough to justify the expense any longer.

 

[Cadfan]

Er? How is this relevant? The contention is that D&D could lead to a pure skirmish game, like Warhammer. Those games have rulebooks and dice too. What they lack is a roleplaying element, which is all we're sayin'.

If all you're arguing is that D&D could lead to a pure skirmish game, then your point is trite beyond words.

But Exploder Wizard is going further than that.