Irreconcilable differences(Forked Thread: When did I stop being WotC's...)

[Thasmodious]

Dungeon Tiles
D&D Minis (both the rules & the plastic figures)
4E Power Cards

All you need to play D&D these days is a big table at your FLGS and some glass beads to track your HP. I've got my BlackOrcs deck with me.

Yes, all those are completely new, so we have no idea of their impact on the game long term.

Dungeon Tiles were just developed yesterday and no such products existed or were used throughout the 80s. Miniatures are a new concept (how did they come up with the idea to shrink fantasy figures? these crazy guys!) and Power Cards, why who ever heard of such a thing before M:tG? Who indeed? Yep, it's clear that these things will have a completely unknown and untestable impact on the future of gaming that only time will be able to tell, but it is entirely reasonable to assume these will kill roleplaying once and for all... [/sarcasm]

 

[justanobody]

Oh, come on - I'm not a 4e fan at all, but that's a pretty damn stupid thing to say. You aren't required to sign up for anything, and you know it.

I was just stating more things that 4th has for its change that 3rd did not have for its change from 2nd.

The types of arguments being given now vs then.

 

[Treebore]

You don't have to go back in time to see how people thought 3ed "destroyed" D&D. Their are several current gaming websites that 3rd edition can not be discussed on,

or is referred to as The Edition That Shall Not Be Named (TETSNBN)

and people who like/play are referred to as 3tards.

When 4ed rolled out the people on these sites mostly rolled their eyes, added 4ron (coined here first as a pre-emptive strike) and just thought "Eh, more of the Same".

Yep, they are still so bad I couldn't even talk about my opinion of the 4E starter set without getting the thread locked.

Its beyond the interests of their message board. I forgot it wasn't my message board too, that it caters to the interest of a rabid few.

 

[Henry]

Oh, the obligatory Magic reference to get a chuckle out of your other anti-4e buddies. How refreshing and original of you, Irda Ranger. What's your coup de grace going to be, the obligatory "4e IZ WOW HUR HUR" claim?

Guys, let's dial it back a notch, please. No need to go here.

I hate the whole "mod voice" thing, but I'm beginning to think people don't pay a lick of attention until it gets used.

Irda Ranger, I still don't see how this is a bad thing -- hell, it's where RPGs came from in the first place -- Little Wars, Napoleonics, Squad Leader, etc. It wasn't the first time I SERIOUSLY thought about (back in 2006 or so) engineering D&D Minis game INTO my main engine for a D&D campaign; if it wasn't so much personal work in doing so, making player generation rules for it, I would have, because it hearkens back to that Moldvay D&D game I grew up with in its simplicity of combat resolution and other elements.

It was the ease of picking up the game, and the size of those little brown books, that encouraged people by the hundreds of thousands to start playing in the first place, people who weren't wargamers or even gamers in the first place, the people who clustered in Gary's basement sand table, TWENTY at a time at the table, playing D&D together. That desire for a simple "go dungeoneering together" was part of what made the game desirable for a whole generation of people, clear down to the 1E set on through the early 80's. If someone could have the best of both worlds -- simplified rules like OD&D, but with the tack-on options of 3E -- in D&D, that would be the best of all worlds, in my opinion.

Only problem is, 3E core books wasn't those rules either, at least not in my opinion. 3E started out the gate with some rough edges, like a page worth of grapple rules, ten pages of terminology for stunned, blinded, negative energy levels, etc. This is part of what kind of holds it back from non-gamers getting into it, to an extent, but part of that is captured in Computer games like World of Warcraft, or heck, even Rock Band/Guitar Hero -- simple to pick up, takes forever to actually "win."

4E isn't there either, but it gets a little closer, for the same reason people yell "dumbed down!" -- reducing as many rough edges as possible in order to appeal to the same kind of person D&D appealed to years ago, the kind of people World of Warcraft appeals to now.

 

[Treebore]

In order to not mis quote or broad cast any false perceptions I offer a copy paste of why my 4E Starter Set thread was closed:

Please read the rules:

Quote:
Rather than argue over what was posted and what needs to be posted, let me just reiterate what has been said: reviews of d20 (and other contemporary) materials need to be offered with a specific view toward using them in old school games. While there are a number of ... who play other games than (O)(A)D&D, the latter is our main focus and straight up reviews of in-print resources not covered here at the site are more appropriate for venues with a broader range of interests. This does narrow the focus of reviews and place a heavier burden on members wishing to cover current items, but it also reflects the intent of ....

I intentionally edited out the name of the board when mentioned. I wouldn't want to be accused of cross board trolling again.

Apparently tokens and tiles are of no use in old school games. Just further proof I am not an old school Grognard.

 

[The Little Raven]

I was just stating more things that 4th has for its change that 3rd did not have for its change from 2nd.

You stated that it was not necessary to sign up for a digital service to play 3e, which strongly implies that it is necessary to sign up for a digital service to play 4e. That is absolutely not true in the slightest.

If, when listing the differences between 2e's launch and 3e's launch, I said that "Well, 2e didn't require you to sign up for two magazines in order to play it," I would be implying that 3e requires that, which it absolutely did not.

You're trying to spread falsehoods using semantic arguments simply because you don't like 4th Edition (or WotC) for your whatever reasons you might have, which does nothing but cause more problems.

The types of arguments being given now vs then.

Most of which are 100% identical.

 

[Set]

Hasbro never had a sinister long term plan for D&D. Gaining ownership of D&D was just a side effect of purchasing WotC to gain control of the Pokemon CCG. Notice how Hasbro has done nothing with D&D outside of WotC.

I wonder if the figures department would improve significantly in quality if Hasbro stepped up the merchandizing for the D&D brand? T-shirts? Posters? A board game, sort of like Warhammer Quest for D&D (I'm not even kidding, Warhammer Quest freaking rocks)! Little plastic suits of Regdar-armor or Alhandra-armor for Halloween (we'll save Hennet for the specialty adult market...)?

I know *somebody* would pony up cash for D&D action figures. Heck, there are people out there who would pony up cash for action figures of Hank the Ranger and Sheila the Rogue, never mind Regdar and Mialee!

 

[Arnwyn]

No matter the topic, a 4e player asking the community for help on some aspect of play, or how to houserule something they want, or a new monster, whatever, someone has to go on the edition attack in those threads. I don't see "4e fanbois" jumping up in every d20 thread yelling "4e rulez. abandon your crap system and come to the light!" Not saying it doesn't happen, and I don't read a lot of the d20 threads as I've moved on, but those I do, I don't see this.

That's okay if you don't see it - I do. There certainly are the "usual suspects"/4e evangelists out there who certainly have a rather... adverse reaction... to any criticism (real or perceived) of 4e. (The "don't think too hard about it" gem was quite popular for a while.) And, counter to your statement, I see more of that than I do of the "3e fans" jumping into 4e threads.

How 'bout that? Guess I'm not sure what your point was...

 

[justanobody]

~~~ Power Cards, why who ever heard of such a thing before M:tG~~~

Objection, your honor.

The wizard/priest/encounter/psionic decks, and the deck of magical items, etc were not random distribution to cause some rarity model to make the individual cards themselves collectible.

These cards, unlike Spellfire, were not bundled in a fashion similar to baseball or collector cards and therefore should be striken from the record as evidence otherwise we might as well state that dice pencils and character sheets sold for the game and any other non-collectible accessory follows the same principe of the CCG model.



The old decks and minis were like the dungeon tiles. They were fixed products that anyone could buy and get the exact same thing. CMG and these power cards for non-fixed minis tie directly to Magic and CCGs because the collectible aspect making the product a gamble to know what you are going to get.

I just wanted to point that out before people lump all fixed model accessories as comparable to CCG/CMG products, because they are not even the same type of thing.

 

[Rykion]

I wonder if the figures department would improve significantly in quality if Hasbro stepped up the merchandizing for the D&D brand? T-shirts? Posters? A board game, sort of like Warhammer Quest for D&D (I'm not even kidding, Warhammer Quest freaking rocks)! Little plastic suits of Regdar-armor or Alhandra-armor for Halloween (we'll save Hennet for the specialty adult market...)?

The Warhammer Quest model of a hybrid boardgame/roleplaying game is exactly what some people fear D&D is becoming. It's a great concept as long as a more traditional D&D game is being put out at the same time.