Irreconcilable differences(Forked Thread: When did I stop being WotC's...)

[Treebore]

And people just have to keep on insisting on who is right and wrong.

 

[justanobody]

The power cards with the PC minis sets are not random, and the monster packs will be random, but they will be packaged with stat cards, not power cards.

D&D Miniatures Changes Announcement


Not that I'll like 'em any more or less... Just too darned expensive, still!

Too damn many new cards to keep up with what is where and who's on first!

But the monster cards with "Delve stats" will still be random with the minis.

That was something I was looking forward to was random new monster powers.

DMs just get screwed when it comes to minis, no matter what year or product it is.

Back to M&Ms for me! You keep what you kill!

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Did 3rd have the requirement to sign up for online services to play? Did it demolish a game not twice but 3 times (DDM)?

DDM 1.0
DDM 2.0 (War Drums)
DDM 3.0 (2.0)
D&D 4th edition and DDM 4.0 (Heroes and Monsters)

Hey the edition numbers match now.

Basically it boils down to the more things change, the more they stay the same. People don't like the changes.

Here is your original post which caused all this trouble. Notice the phrase "Did 3rd have the requirement to sign up for online services to play".

 

[Irda Ranger]

Irda Ranger, I still don't see how this is a bad thing

I never said it was. My use of the "these days" was a bit off, since I read Exploder Wizard as speaking of a possible future, but my post only noted an objective truth (as I see it). Any connotations read into the post are the reader's.

It was the ease of picking up the game, and the size of those little brown books, that encouraged people by the hundreds of thousands to start playing in the first place, people who weren't wargamers or even gamers in the first place, the people who clustered in Gary's basement sand table, TWENTY at a time at the table, playing D&D together. That desire for a simple "go dungeoneering together" was part of what made the game desirable for a whole generation of people, clear down to the 1E set on through the early 80's. If someone could have the best of both worlds -- simplified rules like OD&D, but with the tack-on options of 3E -- in D&D, that would be the best of all worlds, in my opinion.

I agree both opinions in this paragraph. I'm actually working on my own game to do that (though I'm not a professional, so who knows if it will go anywhere ...).

Only problem is, 3E core books wasn't those rules either, at least not in my opinion. 3E started out the gate with some rough edges, like a page worth of grapple rules, ten pages of terminology for stunned, blinded, negative energy levels, etc. This is part of what kind of holds it back from non-gamers getting into it, to an extent, but part of that is captured in Computer games like World of Warcraft, or heck, even Rock Band/Guitar Hero -- simple to pick up, takes forever to actually "win."

4E isn't there either, but it gets a little closer, for the same reason people yell "dumbed down!" -- reducing as many rough edges as possible in order to appeal to the same kind of person D&D appealed to years ago, the kind of people World of Warcraft appeals to now.

I agree with this.

Henry, I don't think we disagree on any points. I just noted that with Dungeon Tiles, Power Cards, Miniatures, Dice and a condensed rulebook, D&D is a mere stone's throw from a pure skirmish game, devoid of all roleplaying - and could go that way pretty easily. All the prep work for that leap has already been done. That's not a diss - it just is what it is. If it's my opinion that AD&D 2E was the pinnacle of D&D, the PHB is right there on my shelf. I'm not the wail and moan type just because Mearls et. al. make decisions I wouldn't.

 

[The Little Raven]

I just noted that with Dungeon Tiles, Power Cards, Miniatures, Dice and a condensed rulebook, D&D is a mere stone's throw from a pure skirmish game, devoid of all roleplaying - and could go that way pretty easily.

These types of accessories have been around for years (decades in some cases). If the very existence and use of them makes us a stone's throw away from a non-roleplaying, pure skirmish game, then we have been that far from it for a long time.

 

[Irda Ranger]

If accessories like gaming tiles are evidence of the game ceasing to be a roleplaying game, then the Dungeon Geomorphs and Outdoor Geomorphs published by TSR in 1976 are evidence of it, which means that it ceased to be a roleplaying game 30 years ago.

If accessories like power cards are evidence of the game ceasing to be a roleplaying game, then the Spell Cards sold in 2nd Edition are evidence of it, which means that it ceased to be a roleplaying game 15 years ago.

So, if TSR producing the same accessories that you claim turn the game into something other than a roleplaying game a long time ago, then I guess D&D hasn't been a roleplaying game for a long time... which, of course, is a completely ridiculous claim, just like the one you're making.



This means that every edition of D&D to date is a collectible game then, so your fears about it changing into one are about 34 years too late. However, the actual point wasn't the collectability of materials, it was that the existence of these materials is somehow evidence of the game ceasing to be a roleplaying game, which is a completely bogus claim.



Magic cards are the central point of the game. Minis, dungeon tiles, and power cards (which haven't even been published) are not the central point of D&D. The books are the central point. A new set of Magic cards is akin to a new book supplement, not a set of Dungeon Tiles or miniatures.



The contention is that accessories that have been a part of the game for a decade at the least are turning it into a non-roleplaying game. A contention which has no actual evidence, just people repeating the same unsubstantiated point over and over again.



What you're saying makes so sense at all.

"All you need to play D&D these days is a big table at your FLGS and some glass beads to track your HP."

So, according to you, needing only (a) game materials, (b) a big table at my FLGS and (c) glass beads to track HP (for whatever reason, since they aren't necessary in any game) is evidence that D&D is moving towards being a non-roleplaying game?

So, following that "logic," the fact that all I need to play OD&D/1e/2e/3e is (a) game materials, (b) a big table at my FLGS and (c) glass beads to track HP (no reason I can't use the same game aid in any edition of the game) must mean that this trend you claim is new has existed for the game's entire lifespan.

The Little Raven, I am afraid that your wounds from the Edition Wars have clouded your thinking. You see enemies when none stand before you, and assume opinions and positions I do not hold. Recall what ExploderWizard said:

"The D&D Brand and roleplaying separating will be the next big step."

You called that ridiculous. Of course, ExploderWizard is making a prediction about the future, so the only way to prove him (or you) correct is to wait. The only thing in your exchange with him which is absolutely, provably ridiculous is your belief that you know the future. (But I will be happy to retract that statement when you PM me next week's lottery numbers. NY or NJ will be fine.)

Just for the record:

I do not fear that D&D will acquire collectible aspects. Yes, D&D has always had supplements and splats, and no, I never cared. This is not my contention.

I don't care whether TSR/WOTC/Hasbro sells optional Dungeon Tiles (or their edition equivalent). I was speaking solely as to the possibility of roleplaying ceasing to be the central mechanism for a PC's interaction with other PCs or NPCs, or even necessary. I was speaking solely to the possibility that in the future players cease to ask "What's over that hill yonder?" You know how Tiles and Minis were "optional" in AD&D? Well the 4E DMG says that you NEED them to play the game. It's right there in the book. And even if that's not 100% true, it's certainly true that 4E is closer to that place than any edition before it.

Well, glad to see you have enough presence of mind not to try and argue from a position of complete ignorance, like so many others. It makes me think there's hope for you, yet.

Your generosity is overwhelming.

 

[Arnwyn]

Really?

Yes, really.

 

[Rykion]

Too damn many new cards to keep up with what is where and who's on first!

But the monster cards with "Delve stats" will still be random with the minis.

That was something I was looking forward to was random new monster powers.

DMs just get screwed when it comes to minis, no matter what year or product it is.

Back to M&Ms for me! You keep what you kill!

Why do you keep assuming that the monster cards are going to have random new monster powers? If the Dungeon Delve book does introduce new powers, I suspect they will appear in the book itself.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Really? Can you please point out threads on this forum that are 3e/d20 and feature 4e fans (like myself) going in there and calling people things like "3tards," broadly insulting the entire player base of the game by implying a lower degree of attention-span, intelligence or ability to be creative or saying things like "3e is defiling Gygax's corpse?" Or make the claim that 3e is not D&D?

I, personally, never see such a thing, because I, personally, don't go into 3e topics because I'm not particularly interested in the game.

Go here. It's not exactly what you describe, but the self-appointed 4E champion in the thread is being pretty dismissive of any observations regarding 4E which he thinks are insults. It's certainly enough to make one feel unwelcome.

 

[The Little Raven]

You called that ridiculous.

Because it is.

Of course, ExploderWizard is making a prediction about the future, so the only way to prove him (or you) correct is to wait.

And provided no evidence to support such a prediction. I could say "I predict that the sky will turn to marshmallows next week," without providing any support for it, and everyone would be perfectly within reason to call it ridiculous.

The only evidence I saw presented was by you, which was a series of accessories that have been around for a longtime. So, excuse me if I believe a prediction to be ridiculous when it is predicated on behavior from the past which has never brought the prediction to fruition before.

And even if that's not 100% true, it's certainly true that 4E is closer to that place than any edition before it.

I would think that a system (AD&D) that provides its measurements of both movement and distance in a form (inches) that would require a measurement device to accurately use is just as close as one which requires a grid.

Your generosity is overwhelming.

Let it be known in the four corners of these lands that I am magnanimous to even my foes!