Is Entangle supposed to be limited by the available vegetation?

[ExploderWizard]

This is actually more true the less rare the applicability.

Plants are more common than black dragons named Bob.

Thats very subjective. Consider this table:

BLACK DRAGON NAME TABLE
01-32- Pat
33-65- Bob
66-00- Sally

If this table were in use for the Black swamps of Death campaign, things could get interesting with such a spell.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

here is what pathfinder did to the spell. I think it is an improvement.

Agreed. Huge improvement-- owing mainly to the creation of the entangled condition.

Lots of great new conditions in Pathfinder. I like "broken" as well with regards to Sunder (not sure if it's in the final though).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Thats very subjective. Consider this table:

BLACK DRAGON NAME TABLE
01-32- Pat
33-65- Bob
66-00- Sally

If this table were in use for the Black swamps of Death campaign, things could get interesting with such a spell.

The last thing the DM wants is for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to have Slay Pat Bob and Sally.

 

[Noumenon]

3.5 had an entangled condition:

The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

I don't know, is Pathfinder's different?

I like Pathfinder's change, but I'm a little wary of house ruling every other spell, especially one I've never even played with. But DC 20 is way too high for a Strength check, and so's the half move.

Regarding line of effect, I just don't like the ruling. I feel like I'm targeting the creatures, not the plants. Heck, I would let someone cast Entangle on roots underground to entangle a bulette.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

3.5 had an entangled condition.

I don't know, is Pathfinder's different?

Hmm... Perhaps it's the fact that Pathfinder intends to use it that is different.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hmm... Perhaps it's the fact that Pathfinder intends to use it that is different.

3.5 did use it, just not frequently. Whips entangled. Kelpstrand spell from Spell Compendium entangles, as does Entangling Staff. There is a level 4 Devoted Spirit maneuver that entangles. I'm sure there's many more examples besides those.


I don't like the pathfinder version, it's just a straight nerf. Congratulations? It's not doing anything new or different, they just based all the DCs on save DC, something I'm wary of. Makes scrolls a lot more useless, makes DCs potentially a joke, or if you buff the hell out of save DC, possibly higher. The 1 point of damage thing is completely negligible, except maybe at level 1 against someone with low HD, low con, or already about ready to keel over from wounds.

Entangle's balancing points are the restricted usage and the area. The restrictions are a fine balancing point. They are not as arbitrary or small as "black dragons named bob," it covers a fair area of geography, though a small proportion of the kinds most parties tend to adventure on (IME fully 75% of the battles I've run or been in, Entangle would be useless). It is also not arbitrary. It is a spell only for Druids and Rangers, who are supposed to be at the advantage in "natural settings" (specifically ones with an abundance of plant and animal life). It makes sense to have a spell that aside from needing plants to work is very strong for its level. IMHO, it's the only decent level 1 Druid spell in core, too... That and Cure Light, I guess.
The area is actually a balancing point because it's unnecessarily big. The radius is so large that it will often hinder your own party, making it even more difficult to use effectively.

 

[Vegepygmy]

It's not doing anything new or different, they just based all the DCs on save DC, something I'm wary of.

I'm generally wary of it, too, but in this case I think it's a definite improvement. The 3.5 version's DC 20 Strength/Escape Artist check to break free is just too high for a 1st level spell.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Catch: You don't have Line of Effect to the roots, unless they're exposed. Even if there are a bunch of roots running through the ceiling, unless they breach the dungeon ceiling, the ceiling itself blocks Line of Effect for the Spread, so they remain unaffected.

You don't need line of effect because the roots are not the target of the spell.

Line of Effect: "You must have clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect"

Entangle: "Area: plants in a 40' radius spread"

Area: "Regardless of the shape of the area you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin is always a grid intersection."

Spread: "A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions."

The fact that plants must be in the area of the spread doesn't make them the target of the spell nor require line of effect to them. As noted specifically, line of effect determines the area that can be affected, not WHAT can be affected. As far as line of effect rules are concerned the target is still the area - not the roots.

 

[frankthedm]

The area is actually a balancing point because it's unnecessarily big. The radius is so large that it will often hinder your own party, making it even more difficult to use effectively.

That isn't a limiting factor at all.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attach...-strong-1st-level-spell-entangle-airburst.gif

 

[risner]

Was the druid spell Entangle designed to be situational -- very good in the forest, lousy otherwise? Or is it OK to say that cave lichens or plants in windowboxes make it possible to use this spell in the dungeon or the city?

Ask you DM, since the RAW puts the decision in his hands.