D&D 5E Is Shillelagh essential?

[stuffnsuch]

This is good news! I think my noob-nerves stemmed from being a goliath druid in a party of squishy rogues/rangers, so I felt the character needed to build up both Wis and Str. I think I'm going to make character/utility choices and just hope that I survive because that sounds like fun!

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Take what fits your concept and trust your DM to make it all work.

This. As the game is written, there is nothing "essential" to surviving/winning/etc. It is in how your DM runs the game where you have to look at what may be essential or not. If you have a DM who writes up adventures without regard to party makeup or uses published adventures without modifying to fit the party, then you have to be more careful with what you choose and what become essential. If you have a DM who works with the party and who does not put you in "unwinnable" situations for your party composition, then you have much more freedom to build your character the way you want.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

From a powergaming standpoint, Shillelagh is a dead end anyway. Useful only at low levels.

At least, for a Moon Druid or non-Arcana cleric. For a Tomelock, Booming/Greenflame Blade keeps Shillelagh relevant even at high levels.

 

[rgoodbb]

You can still use Thorn Whip in melee (just without the pull) and it's thematically more fun IMO. It also benefits from the Mobile feat, Spell Sniper and Absorb Elements as well as being cool, again IMO. Enjoy!

 

[stuffnsuch]

Yeah I literally picked Thorn Whip so I could be a suuuuper inelegant Indiana Jones Hulk Dwooid ​and use it as a clumsily destructive mage hand

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Shillelagh should have been something more like greenflame blade, but they hadn't figured out how to do melee weapon cantrips yet when they designed it.

Like [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] said, shillelagh doesn't scale, which means it is essentially crap at higher levels. If you pair greenflame blade (or to a lesser extent Polearm Master) with it, then it can maintain usefulness.

The problem with the design of it is that Land Druids have no way (without feats or such) to have scaling melee weapon damage. Once they get past low-level, they need to use ranged cantrips for their damage scaling. I suppose the designers may have considered that if you are going the Land route, you are more spellcastery and would want to be throwing produce flame at your foes. I just like the ability to effectively wield that staff that I'm carrying around for style though.

NOTE: Lore bards had exactly the same problem originally. Despite having proficiency in a variety of weapons, their melee weapon damage had no way to scale. However, because of Additional Magical Secrets they can take one of the melee weapon attacks introduced in SCAG, which eliminates that problem for them (although it makes Valor bards less attractive, as without heavy investment in an attack stat greenflame blade --which they can't get until 10th level--is probably going to be superior for them to their Extra Attack).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

NOTE: Lore bards had exactly the same problem originally. Despite having proficiency in a variety of weapons, their melee weapon damage had no way to scale. However, because of Additional Magical Secrets they can take one of the melee weapon attacks introduced in SCAG, which eliminates that problem for them (although it makes Valor bards less attractive, as without heavy investment in an attack stat greenflame blade --which they can't get until 10th level--is probably going to be superior for them to their Extra Attack).

Less attractive, perhaps--but even before SCAG came out, the most common reason I saw for people wanting to play Valor Bard was so they could play The Strongest Man In the World. Enhance Ability (or Enlarge via Magical Secrets), Expertise (Athletics), Extra Attack, and one of either Shield Master or Polearm Master makes you incredibly good at locking enemies down physically.

That role is still 100% intact.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Less attractive, perhaps--but even before SCAG came out, the most common reason I saw for people wanting to play Valor Bard was so they could play The Strongest Man In the World. Enhance Ability (or Enlarge via Magical Secrets), Expertise (Athletics), Extra Attack, and one of either Shield Master or Polearm Master makes you incredibly good at locking enemies down physically.

That role is still 100% intact.

Yeah, that works. But I'd want to play a Valor bard to better represent a 2e bard who could wear what would now be medium armor and effectively wear a longsword and charge into the melee fray. Compared to a Lore bard based on Dex using greenflame blade...its not that great. But that's a universal problem in 5e. If a class provides options to either use a cantrip for your damage scaling, or use a weapon, weapon use relies on maxing your attack stat to stay competitive with cantrip damage (which doesn't rely on maxing a stat). That, or having a good magic weapon, of course.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yeah, that works. But I'd want to play a Valor bard to better represent a 2e bard who could wear what would now be medium armor and effectively wear a longsword and charge into the melee fray. Compared to a Lore bard based on Dex using greenflame blade...its not that great. But that's a universal problem in 5e. If a class provides options to either use a cantrip for your damage scaling, or use a weapon, weapon use relies on maxing your attack stat to stay competitive with cantrip damage (which doesn't rely on maxing a stat). That, or having a good magic weapon, of course.

That's kind of true, but not as much as people tend to think, because cantrips other than Booming/Greenflame Blade and Agonizing Eldritch Blast don't get ability score modifiers, and even Booming/Greenflame Blade only get them once. A Str 16 Valor Bard who takes e.g. the Mounted Combatant feat and uses a lance will be doing 2 * (d12 + 3) = 19 points of damage by 6th level, and even if he learns Booming Blade at 10th level, he'd still only do (d12 + d8 + 3) = 14 points of damage with it at 10th level, (d12 + 2d8 + 3) = 18.5 points of damage with it at 11th-16th level, and (d12 + 3d8 + 3) = 23 points of damage with it at 17th-20th level. (Mounted Combatant isn't even strictly necessary, but it's convenient for keeping your mount alive and has other benefits and I quite like it, so I cite it in this example as a viable path that a Valor Bard could take. But you could also rely on Phantom Steed, or Find Steed, or just use kiting tactics and have a string of backup horses waiting nearby just in case.)

So in practice, all Valor Bards will do cantrip-competitive weapon damage even without maxing their attack stat, for as long as the game is likely to last.

Edit: or you could use a greatsword instead of a lance. Blind spot on my part--I like sword-and-shield for Valor Bards and sometimes forget that greatswords are an option for them.

 

[Leatherhead]

I often feel like casters don't get enough cantrips for non-combat options.