D&D 5E Is the sleep spell d&d 5e too powerful

[Jasondd]

Ok, thanks alot for your comments, Input and keeping it clean. I hope this has been educational and wish you all great fun in your future adventures! Take care

 

[Sacrosanct]

Ok, Maybe discuss it with an open mind to other players and see what they think. I added a saving throw which still makes sleep powerful but more balanced compared to other spells.

Literally the only person on one side of the argument (you) is telling others that they should have an open mind and listen to other players? Do you not see the irony here?

 

[Salthorae]

Yes but killing your companion beside you might wake others up but not from magical sleep...

Yes, but a wizard isn't going to one-shot most other PCs even at level 1, so they're going to wake up and scream bloody murder.

In practical matters, I would expect the raging half-orc barbarian serial killer to get away with more of this PVP murderation than the wizard because of damage output and average Passive Perception when asleep.

 

[ad_hoc]

I don't know if this was commented on...

Balance at 1st level doesn't matter. It's designed to last 1/2 session. Some characters will be more powerful than others. It's fine.

2nd level also doesn't matter. It's designed to last 1 session.

3rd level things start to balance out as subclasses are all chosen. Both 3rd and 4th level are designed to last a couple sessions.

It isn't until 5th level when the game really gets going when the characters have (most) of their character defining powers. Let's start comparing things here.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes but killing your companion beside you might wake others up but not from magical sleep...

The wizard is much more likely to fail to kill their target. The wizard probably has a 12 strength at most, so their attack sucks even with advantage, and if they hit their doing 2d8+2 damage.

The rogue has probably a 16 Dex, is highly unlikely to miss with advantage, and will deal 2d8+2d6+3 damage on a hit.

The wizard is also hitting with a big stick. Much more likely to make a lot of noise and wake anyone who didn’t get caught in the sleep spell.

Lastly, the wizard will die if caught. The rogue can probably take a half-armored and unarmed cleric, and can almost certainly escape a fighter or barbarian.

 

[Mistwell]

&D 5E. Ok,hear me out. Proof sleep is too powerful. Form a group of 4 players (fighter, rogue, priest, wizard), all of which level 1.

Nope. This is, in my opinion, the flaw in your logic. Sleep is powerful at level 1. By level 3 it's already weak. It just doesn't scale. It's a "big gun" spell for a very short period of time, and by the time your character is even choosing a sub-class they already have a spellbook choice that's pretty iffy and not that likely to even be prepared anymore.

 

[5ekyu]

Can you answer my question (from my example) please, thank you. A 1st level wizard has a high chance of wiping out the rest of his party with one spell, sleep!

If we accept that as true, that still does not lead to the conclusion that it is overpowered. The game balance is based off how it plays in long play against a variety of enemies, not its ambush ability against small groups alone.

 

[the Jester]

This is exactly my point, if there is no save he will use it most definitely (1st level spell, very low cost at high level).

Interestingly, of the 5e groups I have run- and I've run several hundred sessions of 5e spread across around five groups- I have only seen sleep actually used a few times. Take from that what you will.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm willing to examine this: proving it wrong will feel soo good.

1st complaint - the PC's in your depiction have on average 1-2 hp lower than they would normally have.

What is the chance the wizard ambushes the party?
What is the chance the wizard goes first if he doesn't?
What is the chance the wizard rolls high enough hp to sleep all 3?
What is the chance the wizard rolls high enough to sleep the rogue and cleric?
What is the chance the wizard rolls high enough to only sleep the lowest hp character?

It seems to me that with all probabilities accounted for - that the wizard isn't even likely to go before the other PC's and that he is very unlikely to sleep all 3 even if he does.

If the wizard doesn't go first he's toast.
If the wizard fails to sleep all 3 then the fighter slaps one of the other PC's awake and moves away from that PC - whichever has a turn after him. (low chance the fighter goes after both the cleric and the rogue). That PC then moves slaps the other awake and moves away. Now the wizard can't even target all 3 with sleep. He's now toast.

Pretty much the only scenarios he can actually win are
1. He ambushes the party AND sleeps 3 players
2. He ambushes the party and sleeps 1 or 2 players and goes in initiative before the other players
3. He fails to ambush but goes first and sleeps all 3.
4. He fails to ambush but goes first and sleeps 2 and that the unslept player is last in initiative.

Honeslty, the wizard probably has a higher chance of killing them all just casting burning hands an hoping for some failed dex saves...

 

[FrogReaver]

The probability of rolling 29 or greater on a 5d8 roll is 12.48%

(Some other likely hp scenarios)
The probability of rolling 30 or greater is 8.84%
The probability of rolling 31 or greater is 6.02%
The probability of rolling 32 or greater is 3.91%

Extremely unlikely to sleep all 3.

However, extremely likely to sleep 2.
The probability of rolling 20 or greater is 71.56%
The probability of rolling 18 or greater is 83.04%

Extremely likely to sleep 2.

There's a very good chance the fighter goes before at least 1 of the other PC's. About 67% of the time (depends a little on dex bonuses) for each class.

The wizard only has about a 25% chance of going first. There's about 50% chance at least 2 Players go before him.

It seems to me there's a small chance he ambushes the party.