It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[ECMO3]

Okay. Instead of buying a WotC book buy a 3P sewing kit. The specific item doesn't matter.

But it does, without the WOTC purchase the market will be smaller. It is the "rising tide" philosophy or as others here have labeled it the "trickle down" effect.

 

[ECMO3]

People can do these things without giving WotC their money. People can support 3pp directly and that does more good for 3pp than giving WotC money that you somehow think will magically trickle down to them. And it will certainly do more good than you emotionally manipulating people in this thread for not supporting 3pp if they don't support WotC.

But they won't that is the point, or more accurately they won't as much. Hurting the 5E market (which is primarily driven by WOTC products) will hurt the market for those things. It is not "magic".

You can support who you want, if you want to boycott WOTC regardless of what impact it has on livelihoods of others that is your choice, but you should at least be honest with yourself about it.

As for as being manipulative, what I am doing on this thread is certainly no more manipulative than when I and many other people on this forum were telling people to boycott WOTC and cancel their DDB subscriptions a month ago (or when I went further on a post that got me banned from a thread). I guess it is good manuipulation to tell people not to buy WOTC products, but it is bad manipulation to tell them to buy them?

Call it manipulation if you want, but there were a ton of people throughout the community "emotionally manipulating" others last month and there are still other people doing it now, including others on this very thread. The common thing in my manipulation both during the controversy and now; is I am advocating the actions that at the time I think are in the best interest of the hobby, game and its creators.

 

[Incenjucar]

But it does, without the WOTC purchase the market will be smaller. It is the "rising tide" philosophy or as others here have labeled it the "trickle down" effect.

WotC does not revenue share. 3P developers make nothing off of WotC purchases.

The continued existence of WotC and their marketing of the base D&D game helps to maintain the size of the player base, but for 3P to make money you have to send them that money, and any money that goes to them does not go to WotC unless the employees go buy some WotC stuff with their paychecks or something.

The rising tide is more people playing fantasy RPGs. WotC's marketing budget can influence that, but so can 3P developers becoming so popular that people forget about WotC entirely.

 

[mamba]

Call it manipulation if you want, but there were a ton of people throughout the community "emotionally manipulating" others last month and there are still other people doing it now, including others on this very thread. The common thing in my manipulation both during the controversy and now; is I am advocating the actions that at the time I think are in the best interest of the hobby, game and its creators.

Were you for or against boycotting WotC a month ago?

As to the best interest of the 3pps, we simply seem to disagree what that is or how boycotting WotC would affect it

 

[Aldarc]

But they won't that is the point, or more accurately they won't as much. Hurting the 5E market (which is primarily driven by WOTC products) will hurt the market for those things. It is not "magic".

You can support who you want, if you want to boycott WOTC regardless of what impact it has on livelihoods of others that is your choice, but you should at least be honest with yourself about it.

WotC is not the sole 5e market. 5e is now bigger than WotC. WotC tried to shut down the OGL, in part, because they wanted a bigger slice of 3pp money. Kobold Press and other 3rd Party Publishers are creating their own versions of 5e and products that remain compatible with 5e. I don't have to buy WotC products to support them in that endeavor. I can use my limited funds to directly support 3pp who are making 5e products, and 3pp will continue getting more money and support from me than you will probably ever send their way. Moreover, WotC IS NOT ENTITLED TO MY MONEY like you think that they are. I am welcome to spend my money how I please, where I please, and on whom I please. I can spend as much or as little in this hobby as I wish with the money that I have. The impact that my spending choices on WotC products has on the livelihoods of 3pp is exceedingly negligble because I will be supporting the 3pp I like directly rather than rely on the magical thinking of trickle down economics. I guarantee you that I have probably directly supported more 3pp than you ever will.

As for as being manipulative, what I am doing on this thread is certainly no more manipulative than when I and many other people on this forum were telling people to boycott WOTC and cancel their DDB subscriptions a month ago (or when I went further on a post that got me banned from a thread). I guess it is good manuipulation to tell people not to buy WOTC products, but it is bad manipulation to tell them to buy them?

The bottom line is that it's bad manipulation to gaslight people. It's bad emotional manipulation to tell falseholds like that if we don't buy WotC products that we are hurting 3rd party publishers. It's bad emotional manipulation when you directly tell a 3rd Party Publisher in this thread that they are being bad for not buying WotC products. It's bad emotional manipulation when you engage in false equivalence arguments like in this quote.

 

[ECMO3]

Were you for or against boycotting WotC a month ago?

Yes, I was for that and some less legal methods to deal with them as well.

 

[ECMO3]

WotC does not revenue share. 3P developers make nothing off of WotC purchases.

Absolutely they do make money off of the market improving. Look at all the videos from creators online about WOTC-produced products/builds etc. All the DMs Guild products sold as supplements to WOTC products etc.

The continued existence of WotC and their marketing of the base D&D game helps to maintain the size of the player base, but for 3P to make money you have to send them that money, and any money that goes to them does not go to WotC unless the employees go buy some WotC stuff with their paychecks or something.

Maintaining the player base maintains the market so people do send 3P creators monry.

As I said a couple posts ago, I don't know anyone who plays D&D who has not contributed to 3rd party creators and virtually all of those people play the game using WOTC game material.

If you buy maps or dice or watch videos or use a VTT or anything else you are supporting 3P creators.

The rising tide is more people playing fantasy RPGs. WotC's marketing budget can influence that, but so can 3P developers becoming so popular that people forget about WotC entirely.

I don't think it is, while a rise in 5E popularity has possibly had a positive effect on other games, the market is predominatly 5e-driven and if it fragments I believe it will get substantially smaller overall.

 

[Aldarc]

I wonder how a 3rd Party Publisher like EN Publishing would get greater monetary support from me?

(A) I jump back on the WotC train and buy every WotC 5e product available in duplicates

OR

(B) I buy a single copy of the Level Up Adventurer's Guide

This is tough, but I suspect that a 3pp like EN Publishing would receive more money from (B) than they would from (A). In fact, I bet that EN Publishing would probably get even more money if I used the money from (A) to buy Level Up products without spending a single nickle or dime on WotC products.

 

[ECMO3]

WotC is not the sole 5e market. 5e is now bigger than WotC. WotC tried to shut down the OGL, in part, because they wanted a bigger slice of 3pp money. Kobold Press and other 3rd Party Publishers are creating their own versions of 5e and products that remain compatible with 5e. I don't have to buy WotC products to support them in that endeavor. I can use my limited funds to directly support 3pp who are making 5e products, and 3pp will continue getting more money and support from me than you will probably ever send their way. Moreover, WotC IS NOT ENTITLED TO MY MONEY like you think that they are. I am welcome to spend my money how I please, where I please, and on whom I please. I can spend as much or as little in this hobby as I wish with the money that I have. The impact that my spending choices on WotC products has on the livelihoods of 3pp is exceedingly negligble because I will be supporting the 3pp I like directly rather than rely on the magical thinking of trickle down economics. I guarantee you that I have probably directly supported more 3pp than you ever will.

You can do whatever you want with your money, and I don't think anyone is entitled to your money except those you choose to send it to. If you choose to boycott WOTC you will hurt 3P creators in the process.

As for whether you have or have not supported more 3pp creators,I have no idea. However, I have been supporting 3p RPG creators for 43 years.

The bottom line is that it's bad manipulation to gaslight people.

Yet you are doing exactly that in this post. As a point of fact, right here in this post you are using words like "manipulation" to challenge my logic. That is factually gaslighting.

It's bad emotional manipulation to tell falseholds like that if we don't buy WotC products that we are hurting 3rd party publishers.

If it was a falsehood it would be, but it is not.

Look on this very forum at theposts from a month ago. People pointed out, very correctly, that the OGL helped WOTC, was responsible for its growth and the growth of the entire community. We grew together! Without that we will all suffer together.

It is as true now as it was when people were saying it earlier this year.

It's bad emotional manipulation when you directly tell a 3rd Party Publisher in this thread that they are being bad for not buying WotC products. It's bad emotional manipulation when you engage in false equivalence arguments like in this quote.

I never said anyone was being "bad". I believe the only time I used the term "bad" was as a qualifier for manipulation, trying to point out the hypocrisy in the argument that it is ok to manipulate people for one goal but not another.

What I have said is it hurts 3P creators. I believe that statement and I stand by it, but I have not said it is "bad".

 

[Incenjucar]

Absolutely they do make money off of the market improving. Look at all the videos from creators online about WOTC-produced products/builds etc. All the DMs Guild products sold as supplements to WOTC products etc.



Maintaining the player base maintains the market so people do send 3P creators monry.

As I said a couple posts ago, I don't know anyone who plays D&D who has not contributed to 3rd party creators and virtually all of those people play the game using WOTC game material.

If you buy maps or dice or watch videos or use a VTT or anything else you are supporting 3P creators.



I don't think it is, while a rise in 5E popularity has possibly had a positive effect on other games, the market is predominatly 5e-driven and if it fragments I believe it will get substantially smaller overall.

DMs Guild is not the whole of 3P, and you don't need to buy WotC books to buy 3P. I have spent a total of $0 on WotC 5E products, but I have purchased a number of non-WotC 5E products. If WotC went bankrupt today I could still buy 3P products.

 

[ECMO3]

I wonder how a 3rd Party Publisher like EN Publishing would get greater monetary support from me?

(A) I jump back on the WotC train and buy every WotC 5e product available in duplicates

OR

(B) I buy a single copy of the Level Up Adventurer's Guide

This is tough, but I suspect that a 3pp like EN Publishing would receive more money from (B) than they would from (A). In fact, I bet that EN Publishing would probably get even more money if I used the money from (A) to buy Level Up products without spending a single nickle or dime on WotC products.

And they would get even more if you both jumped back on the 5E train and bought EN products.

However you are looking at one 3P creator. If you instead just give me your money that would help me the most obviously, but it would not help EN publishing or the rest of the community.

Buying every WOTC product available in duplicate would help the 5E 3P community more than buying a single EN Publishing product would IMO.

 

[ECMO3]

DMs Guild is not the whole of 3P, and you don't need to buy WotC books to buy 3P. I have spent a total of $0 on WotC 5E products, but I have purchased a number of non-WotC 5E products. If WotC went bankrupt today I could still buy 3P products.

I have not said it is, and in addition to DMs Guild, I used several other examples on the very post you quoted.

I will add though that 3P published content is not the whole of 3P products. I don't think it is even a majority portion of it.

If WOTC went backrupt tomorrow and went out of business with no new D&D material (unlikely even if they go bankrupt), a number of people making fan content, dice, art, miniatures, maps and supplements would likely go out of business too in the next few months. That includes people on DMs guild but a lot more that are not there.

 

[Arilyn]

I haven't seen a single 3pp or RPG you- tuber come out and ask us to go back to buying WotC products so they can stay in business. If 3pp need us to buy WotC products they'd surely let us know.

3pp are figuring out how to be more independent. Many you- tubers are broadening into other games, or giving more general advice. 5e isn't being abandoned, but options are being explored. This, in my opinion, is good for the hobby. Money going directly to these efforts has to do more for 3pp than buying the latest D&D product.

I love the exposure other companies are getting right now and I hope the interest in alternatives grows stronger.

 

[Incenjucar]

I have not said it is, and in addition to DMs Guild, I used several other examples on the very post you quoted.

I will add though that 3P published content is not the whole of 3P products. I don't think it is even a majority portion of it.

If WOTC went backrupt tomorrow and went out of business with no new D&D material (unlikely even if they go bankrupt), a number of people making fan content, dice, art, miniatures, maps and supplements would likely go out of business too in the next few months. That includes people on DMs guild but a lot more that are not there.

The demand for dice is not going to suddenly disappear because WotC isn't selling Spelljammer 2: Even Less Content This Time

 

[mamba]

Buying every WOTC product available in duplicate would help the 5E 3P community more than buying a single EN Publishing product would IMO.

and that is where we disagree. Me buying anything WotC does not help 3pps. Me buying 3pp products is helping them, so buying one EN product helps more than buying all WotC products.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Absolutely they do make money off of the market improving. Look at all the videos from creators online about WOTC-produced products/builds etc. All the DMs Guild products sold as supplements to WOTC products etc.



Maintaining the player base maintains the market so people do send 3P creators monry.

As I said a couple posts ago, I don't know anyone who plays D&D who has not contributed to 3rd party creators and virtually all of those people play the game using WOTC game material.

If you buy maps or dice or watch videos or use a VTT or anything else you are supporting 3P creators.



I don't think it is, while a rise in 5E popularity has possibly had a positive effect on other games, the market is predominatly 5e-driven and if it fragments I believe it will get substantially smaller overall.

Do I have to care about D&D-related videos and paid DMs to avoid harming 3pps in your view? I really only care about actual RPG products (books and PDFs) and do not purchase any product because I want to use it in tandem with WotC products (although some of that might happen as a side effect).

 

[Faolyn]

But it does, without the WOTC purchase the market will be smaller. It is the "rising tide" philosophy or as others here have labeled it the "trickle down" effect.

No, it won't.

All those people who stopped playing D&D? They're playing other games now. WotC will have a slightly smaller slice of that pie, but Paizo and Pinnacle and others will have a bigger slice. The market will remain exactly the same, or even grow, because people who aren't interested in playing a pointy-hatted wizard flinging fireballs at hordes of undead may in fact be very interested in playing a noir detective or an old west gunslinger or a space explorer or a magic girl or a cyberpunk street samurai or a steampunk inventor, which means more people will become gamers. And this is what we want, right? For people to love RPGs?

Or is it your goal that people only learn to play the games you like?

Also, neither rising tide nor tickle down actually work. All they do is ensure that one company gets bigger while the rest flounder.

 

[Justice and Rule]

But it does, without the WOTC purchase the market will be smaller. It is the "rising tide" philosophy or as others here have labeled it the "trickle down" effect.

Wait, what? No, just because people aren't buying WotC doesn't mean the market is smaller. There is no direct relationship between Wizards and the strength of the market in that respect, especially when it comes to other game companies. Buying from a specific company does not benefit the market any more than buying from a dozen other companies.

Instead of talking about a "rising tide" (I always hate that idea because the people who are benefiting most are not actually a part of the analogy, making the benefit seem more equitable), we should talk about market diversification so that one company's health and decisions cannot have such a disastrous and deleterious effect on the others. That's just a much smarter strategy.

 

[Aldarc]

If you choose to boycott WOTC you will hurt 3P creators in the process.

No, it won't. If you want to keep making this argument, then you need to show some receipts.

The amount of money that WotC loses from any hypothetical boycott by my own person as well as the nebulous amount that a nebulous collective sum of 3pp would have gained from that action is financially negligible in comparison to the amount that actual 3pp gain by me directly supporting the 3pp that I like. Dollar for dollar or Euro for Euro, the 3pp who I want to support disproportionately gain far more from my direct support than they lose from any hypothetical boycott of WotC by me. I do far more to help the 3pp I like to light their homes by spending my limited funds on them rather than WotC.

There will always be people who will throw money at WotC for everything. WotC gets their greatest financial support from their investors, whales, and bootlickers. Not from people like me. If I boycotted them, I would not even be a blip on their radar. They don't care. I am Outis. I am Nemo. I'm not even their target demographic anymore, and I'm okay with that. My money goes to products and creators that I want to support. WotC isn't entitled to that money. Thankfully, the healthy growth of the tabletop hobby does not hinge on my support for WotC. It doesn't even hinge on my support for 5e. It doesn't hinge on me at all. I am a hobbyist who chooses to buy what I want for reasons that are my own.

However, I know from experience talking with third party publishers that it means a great deal to them when you support them directly. That is how I choose to grow the TTRPG market, by investing in and buying from 3pp directly. By spending money on WotC's competitors. By spending money on the publishers, designers, and content creators who are making the content that I actually enjoy and want to use. If you want to help 3pp grow in the way you see best, then you are welcome to give WotC even more money on your own dime. Give WotC all the money that you think that I should have spent on WotC instead of the 3pp whose products I prefer buying. Every time that anyone here chooses not to buy a product from WotC, we will let you know so you can help directly sponsor this Fortune 500-backed brand by buying that WotC product in our stead.

Yet you are doing exactly that in this post. As a point of fact, right here in this post you are using words like "manipulation" to challenge my logic, That is factually gaslighting.

Identifying when someone is gaslighting me and others in this thread is factually speaking not gaslighting.

Look on this very forum at theposts from a month ago. People pointed out, very correctly, that the OGL helped WOTC, was responsible for its growth and the growth of the entire community. We grew together! Without that we will all suffer together.

Ryan Dancey helped engineer the OGL, in part, so that the TTRPG hobby would never need WotC or TSR or any singular company to carry the torch for D&D. Now that 5e is CC and ORC is on the way, we have even less reason to support WotC than before, and our need to support WotC will only become less and less as a result of Level Up, Kobold Press's Black Flag, and many other games out there that will keep 5e alive. And when WotC moves on from 5e to make content for One D&D, then these 3pp can still make content for 5e. If your desire is genuinely in support of keeping the growth of 5e as a game alive, then you will hopefully be giving 3pp money rather than One D&D. 3pp can continue making products for those games without any of us giving money to WotC. There are other ways to grow this hobby than giving WotC money.

 

[Faolyn]

Do I have to care about D&D-related videos and paid DMs to avoid harming 3pps in your view? I really only care about actual RPG products (books and PDFs) and do not purchase any product because I want to use it in tandem with WotC products (although some of that might happen as a side effect).

No, because not watching them because you don't want to is magically different than not watching them because you refuse to.