I've made up my mind...for now.

[Renfield]

I just read through Observe Creature, and I still doubt your claim.

It tells you what it does, how much information it provides, and how it can be countered. The rolls involved seem reasonable given the nature of the effect. What makes you say this is pure B.S.?

It's an epic level ritual wherein to do something that you could do at comparatively low levels in 3e you have to spend 31000gp and even then you could only observe someone for up to 30 seconds. That seems quite the opposite of reasonable to me unless I misread something about it. Toss in the hour casting time and it gets obscene. If you disagree more power to you but I honestly think it's B.S.

 

[drachasor]

I agree with most of that, but after reading the books I believe your last hope is not realized. In fact, after being very pro 4E, I have been left deflated by the fact that 2/3s of the book seems to be missing - with house rules having to take up the slack.

I'm a little disappointed they didn't include the whole game (the combat is 99% fantastic - shame about the other part of the game they missed.)

What's missing? I don't see it. Sure it doesn't have some atrocious mechanics like 3E had (such as with crafting), but that's good, not bad.

 

[The Little Raven]

What's missing? I don't see it. Sure it doesn't have some atrocious mechanics like 3E had (such as with crafting), but that's good, not bad.

Especially with DMG page 42. Remember, Gygax said something about not letting DMs know they didn't need the rules from TSR... and page 42 embodies that philosophy by giving us the heart of the rules.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Why am I playing 4th ed?

Because I like it.

But I haven't suddenly stopped playing 3rd edition either. Because I also like that.

 

[Renfield]

What's missing? I don't see it. Sure it doesn't have some atrocious mechanics like 3E had (such as with crafting), but that's good, not bad.

Yep, now they have no rules for crafting! That's the way to handle things we didn't like in the previous edition!

*take this comment seriously and I laugh at you!*

 

[Jack Colby]

4E doesn't need house rules, it needs rulings. Individual DM rulings based on the situation. This is in keeping with the tradition of D&D prior to 3E. It's the reason there is a DM in the game, and if you're not able to handle making rulings, you may want to reconsider being a DM.

 

[theNater]

It's an epic level ritual wherein to do something that you could do at comparatively low levels in 3e you have to spend 31000gp and even then you could only observe someone for up to 30 seconds. That seems quite the opposite of reasonable to me unless I misread something about it. Toss in the hour casting time and it gets obscene. If you disagree more power to you but I honestly think it's B.S.

Yes, scrying comes later and has a shorter duration than it did in 3rd edition. However, unless the target is magically protected from scrying, you will get to see them for a short period. This is in contrast to 3rd edition scrying's weakness to creatures with high will saves.

The expense is much more reasonable than it seems. The smallest treasure parcel for a level 24 group is 60,000gp worth of stuff. That's nearly enough to scry twice assuming you throw your scrying mirror into the garbage after using it.

And an hour casting time is only a big deal if you're in a time sensitive situation, which means skill use is probably more appropriate than ritual use anyway. If you're in a situation where you've got more than 5 minutes, you can probably spare an hour.

This doesn't strike me as rushed, inattentive game design. It seems like it does precisely what it's supposed to at a reasonable cost. "Harder to access than the 3rd edition equivalent" is not the same as "badly designed."

 

[hamishspence]

scry break

I liked the fact that monsters aware of being scried (scryed?) on could break the scry, hurting the caster some in the process (drain healing surge) Its a staple of fantasy, and has appeared in a number of books. Crown of Fire by Ed greenwood (Fzoul) for example. David Gemmels Last Sword of Power (Moloch)

its an interesting little detail.

 

[MrGrenadine]

One other difference: I see the shear volume of 3/3.5 stuff as a liability, not an asset. I like the idea of refocusing on the core, not being concerned about what of the many books I do or do not want to use, and everybody being on the same page again. At least for a while.

The sheer volume of information in 3.0/3.5 is pretty overwhelming. For instance, I'm always wondering if that perfect feat is right around the corner, (in the next splat book), and things like that. And every DM I've ever played with has limited the game to Core plus some specific other material--never "anything goes".

So I understand the desire to focus on the Core, but in 3.5, thats a piece of cake--just limit yourself to the DMG, PHB, and MM1.

MrG

 

[Renfield]

Yes, scrying comes later and has a shorter duration than it did in 3rd edition. However, unless the target is magically protected from scrying, you will get to see them for a short period. This is in contrast to 3rd edition scrying's weakness to creatures with high will saves.

The expense is much more reasonable than it seems. The smallest treasure parcel for a level 24 group is 60,000gp worth of stuff. That's nearly enough to scry twice assuming you throw your scrying mirror into the garbage after using it.

And an hour casting time is only a big deal if you're in a time sensitive situation, which means skill use is probably more appropriate than ritual use anyway. If you're in a situation where you've got more than 5 minutes, you can probably spare an hour.

This doesn't strike me as rushed, inattentive game design. It seems like it does precisely what it's supposed to at a reasonable cost. "Harder to access than the 3rd edition equivalent" is not the same as "badly designed."

Well that's your opinion. I honestly don't see any reason scrying should be epic level to begin with, whether relative cost is worthwhile or not. It strikes me as rushed and poorly thought out, I suppose they had to meet that deadline. But that's my opinion and like you and yours I'm sticking to it.