D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[PHATsakk43]

This whole thing about terms and definitions is irrelevant.

I grew up using the n-word. Routinely called people the r-word and f-word.

I don’t now. Again, I’m not going to justify what I used to do. It’s not justifiable. Fact is, I did what I did because I didn’t care about the impact.

The only “context” for that stuff was that society was much more willing to accept marginalization of people. I’d like to think I could have got to this point in my own self-awareness without external pressure, but honestly I can’t really say that is true.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

As a white, cis-, het-, 45-year-old dude from NC, I also had a flag pinned to my bedroom ceiling as a kid that I definitely would not have today. ... SNIP

Just know that there is a special place in hell for people who make wonderful posts and points that force me to like the post, yet also put in pro-bard propaganda.

It's a serious case of mixed emotions, kind of like watching a bard drive off a cliff in your new Mercedes.

 

[PHATsakk43]

Just know that there is a special place in hell for people who make wonderful posts and points that force me to like the post, yet also put in pro-bard propaganda.

It's a serious case of mixed emotions, kind of like watching a bard drive off a cliff in your new Mercedes.

The best way to make sure everyone hates bards as much as you do is to make all your NPC villains bards.

I mean, we’re all existing in idiosyncrasy. I’m here discussing how the industry has changed (and how it hasn’t) and how we should acknowledge the humans we play with while complaining in another thread about a player wanting to be a PC hadrosaur.

Maybe the only way to convince everyone of how terrible bards are is for you to run nothing but bard NPCs in every game you DM?

 

[MGibster]

As to that “knowing their audience” bit, it honestly reminds me of when indoor smoking bans were proposed. The bar industry was absolutely sure that it would ruin them. Come to find out, the smokers had long been out numbered by non-smokers who were actually more comfortable in the bar or restaurant without the smoke. For the most part, sales and patrons increased.

I've said in other threads, the more I've learned about TSR the more surprised I am they were so successful. I honestly don't think anyone at TSR really had any idea who their audience was when the game became so unexpectedly popular. Sometimes people create things for a specific audience and find that it resonates with people you never really intended to reach. Masters of the Universe was designed as a toyline specifically aimed at boys ages 5-10, so Mattell was very surprised to learn that nearly 30% of the audience for He-Man and the Masters of the Universe were girls within the same age range. Mattell actually cared about market research, and decided to expand their product line with She-Ra to tap into an unexpected market. I don't know if TSR really did much to figure out who their audience was or what they wanted.

 

[Staffan]

I've said in other threads, the more I've learned about TSR the more surprised I am they were so successful. I honestly don't think anyone at TSR really had any idea who their audience was when the game became so unexpectedly popular. Sometimes people create things for a specific audience and find that it resonates with people you never really intended to reach. Masters of the Universe was designed as a toyline specifically aimed at boys ages 5-10, so Mattell was very surprised to learn that nearly 30% of the audience for He-Man and the Masters of the Universe were girls within the same age range. Mattell actually cared about market research, and decided to expand their product line with She-Ra to tap into an unexpected market. I don't know if TSR really did much to figure out who their audience was or what they wanted.

Ryan Dancey wrote an article here about his "autopsy" of TSR, and at the time came to the conclusion that what killed TSR was the utter lack of market research. There were other factors that were more immediate causes, but they could all be traced back to market research.
Edit: Added link.

 

[Autumnal]

I mean, we’re all existing in idiosyncrasy.

Hey, I ain’t no idiot.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

the fact that he kept doubling down and continuing to do so even after it was pointed out repeatedly?


or the only one consistent with the facts…

When someone responds to you with a reasoned post, how about not talking to them like they are an idiot? Measured tones, sir.

 

[PHATsakk43]

I've said in other threads, the more I've learned about TSR the more surprised I am they were so successful. I honestly don't think anyone at TSR really had any idea who their audience was when the game became so unexpectedly popular. Sometimes people create things for a specific audience and find that it resonates with people you never really intended to reach. Masters of the Universe was designed as a toyline specifically aimed at boys ages 5-10, so Mattell was very surprised to learn that nearly 30% of the audience for He-Man and the Masters of the Universe were girls within the same age range. Mattell actually cared about market research, and decided to expand their product line with She-Ra to tap into an unexpected market. I don't know if TSR really did much to figure out who their audience was or what they wanted.

The more I've read and learned about TSR the more surprised I am that the heavy cocaine use didn't start until 7-8 years in. Even then it was mostly just Gary and Ernie, who weren't really doing anything other than cocaine regarding running the company out in California.

Yeah, you'd thought they would have recognized the market for their stuff was school age kids instead of adults when they decided to run a Saturday morning cartoon show, but again, it seems that they had zero interest in actually being successful. Or at least working to make it more than serendipity.

Again, if anyone is thinking that the problematic stuff coming out of Lake Geneva was limited to Gary and the Blume's running of things should just refer to those "Women of Fantasy" calendars (along with relatively frequent comments in Dragon Magazine stating how offensive they were.)

Or stuff like (Trigger Warning for Snarf-the word "bard" is referenced) "Brandon's Bard in a Box" from the BECMI accessory "The Book of Wonderous Inventions" TSR 9220:

Strange, alien tunes suddenly blare forth at maximum volume. A pounding repetitious heat underlies the harsh, strident tones of unidentifiable instruments; sometimes voices wail in accompaniment, or a single voice shouts forth in an oddly syncopated, compelling chant.​

​

When this happens, all listeners within earshot must immediately save against Spell. Those who were dancing to the previous music make the save at -4 to their roll. Anyone who fails the saving throw is compelled to dance in an​

outrageous and alien manner. During the first round, these dancers, bewitched by the perverse music, gather close to the Box and throw their bodies into odd contortions: their arms flop about and their legs move in no traditional dance​

step whatsoever. During the second round, each enchanted dancer begins to walk backwards as if blown by the wind,​

while moving arms and head in a disjointed, mechanical manner.​

​

During the third round, and for each round thereafter, dancers hectically throw themselves to the ground, attempting to spin on their hacks or their heads, or flipping their legs through the air while supporting their weight on their arms.​

​

TSR 9220 The Book of Wonderous Inventions, pg 17-18​

Which was likewise accompanied by a B&W drawing of one of the "wild elves" using Brandon's Bard in a Box with quite a bit of late-80s Hollywood minstrelsy.

 

[MGibster]

Ryan Dancey wrote an article here about his "autopsy" of TSR, and at the time came to the conclusion that what killed TSR was the utter lack of market research. There were other factors that were more immediate causes, but they could all be traced back to market research.

Learning the golden age of settings, which I remember fondly, was one of the factors in TSR's demise was a painful lesson.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The best way to make sure everyone hates bards as much as you do is to make all your NPC villains bards.

I mean, we’re all existing in idiosyncrasy. I’m here discussing how the industry has changed (and how it hasn’t) and how we should acknowledge the humans we play with while complaining in another thread about a player wanting to be a PC hadrosaur.

Maybe the only way to convince everyone of how terrible bards are is for you to run nothing but bard NPCs in every game you DM?

Well, it is my greatest ability and skill that I can get my blood angered up by just about anything! I thank genetics and upbringing for that. As I like to point out, Mama Snarf believed in the theory that a child learns best by doing. Which is why she tossed me into the lake so that I would learn to swim! Wasn't that hard, either, after I got out of the bag.

But yes, I live to have my blood angered. I have gone straight past dislike to hatred, and have SMASHED the subscribe button to every youtube channel available that discussed the perfidy of your garden-variety bard. This is not a question of convincing others of the truth of the proposition that Bards defy physics- they are manage to both suck and blow at the same time.

Saying I hate bards does a true disservice to the deep well of antipathy I have cultivated toward those miscreants. Allowing them into a game as villains might allow them to propagate further, and I do not want to be responsible for their multiplication.

My hatred of Bards is the fuel that warms the cold, dark cockles of my heart as the sun grows ever dimmer during each Winter. I hate Bards like a young child loves Christmas morning; with unreserved enthusiasm. In fact, with the Holidays approaching, all I can ask for is spiked egg nog, and, well... a wish!

If I had one wish that I could wish for this Holiday Season, it would be that WoTC would kill off the Bard and all the gamers of the world would join hands and sing in the spirit of harmony and peace.

If I had two wishes that I could wish for this Holiday Season, the first would be that WoTC would kill off the Bard and all the gamers of the world would join hands and sing in the spirit of harmony and peace. And the second would be that WoTC would give other people stuff they want, too.

You know, if I had three wishes I could make for this Holiday Season, the first, of course, would be that WoTC would kill off the Bard and all the gamers of the world would join hands and sing, the second would be for people getting stuff they like, and the third would be for me receiving 30 million dollars every month. Preferably tax-free. I mean... have you seen those tax rates?

And if I had four wishes that I could make this for this Holiday Season, the first would be the crap about WoTC killing of the Bards and the gamers getting along and stuff and singing, the second would be other people getting nice stuff or whatever, the third would be for the money, and the fourth would be for encompassing power over every living being in the entire universe. SNARFUS REX!

Wait a minute, maybe the all-encompassing power should be the first wish, because it could all go boom tomorrow, then what do you got, y'know? No, no, killing the bards and all those gamers singing and getting along ... that would be great, that would be nice. But wait a minute, who am I kidding? They're not going to be able to get all the gamers together. I mean, the logistics of the thing is impossible, more trouble than it's worth! Not to mention ... have you seen people lately? Have you even read facebook or twitter/X or the comments on youtube? So -- we reorganize! Here we go. First, the power. We go with that. Second, the money. And then give other people what they want ... NO, wait, we give ME what I WANT. Which is killing off the bards. And other people singing and stuff. Oh wait, oh jeez, I forgot about revenge against my enemies! Okay, I need revenge against all my enemies, they should die like pigs in hell! That would be my fourth wish. Actually, maybe that's my first wish. Mostly because of social media. And also because that would be the bards as well, plus DEREK!!!!! But let's assume I have four wishes.

And, of course, my fifth wish would be for other games to get stuff they want. As long as it's eliminating the Bards.

Now I have heard people say that I drink too much, but I only drink to separate my knowledge of the existence of Bards from my consciousness.