D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

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As an American currently living in Canada, I'm not sure that the practicality of your sentiment is in actual practice.

The bigotry is differently directed than what I'm used to in the states, but it is quite healthy and folks are quite willing to discuss how they feel about "those people."

I'm not sure that there is some magical post bigotry land that can look down upon all those other people still wallowing in their archaic prejudices.
There isn't, and Canada is not without its share of intolerance. I can't comment on America; I don't live there. But Canadians should by no means pat ourselves on the back and think that we are some sort of post-bigotry utopia.

But just because the problem will probably never be completely fixed doesn't mean you can't take practical steps to improve the situation. Seatbelts don't save everyone who is in a car accident, but they are still a step forward. I think Canada's hate speech laws are a good example of a category where freedom of speech needs to be curtailed. I agree with them; they are quite limited and specifically prohibit “wilful promotion of hatred” and “public incitement of hatred" against an "identifiable group" of people ("any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or mental or physical disability").

Inciting hatred is a lot more than expressing dislike or disagreement; it means speech that is intended to lead to severe consequences against that group of people, such as violence, denial of rights, and so on.

Note that these are extremes. There is nothing I have seen in any TSR or WotC publication that would remotely constitute hate speech in Canada.
 

First off, i would like to thank two people who linked Book of Vile Darkness pdf on DTRPG. It seams that their search filters out mature content if you are not signed in and have mature filter off. Thx people.

I liked BoVD as a product. It was first official product designed around evil with options for evil characters. I got bored playing typical heroes and Good vs Evil looong time ago. Then again, i started ttrpg journey by playing VtM Sabbath campaign and reading Song of Ice and Fire at the time i started with d&d. So i liked more grim, more shades of grey everyone is kind of naughty word. That's why i liked Dark Sun also (plus, 2ed DS art is wonderful, Brom's stuff is great, there is some Frazzetaesqe art also). I know i'm probably in minority here when it comes to that and it's ok. Tastes are subjective after all. Some like playing heroes. I like anti heroes and villains ( specially ones who follow old saying - Road to hell is paved by good intentions).

I'm fully aware that WoTC has been moving away from mature oriented content into more PG-13 territory for a while. It's sound business decision when you want to be mainstream product and get as big as possible customer base. It just sucks that they are more willing to shelve it in their cellar than license it out to some other company ( same with other less popular old settings). While yes, someone could make DS rip off, DS is still brand, it's recognized by players and when you tell someone - I run Dark Sun, they have solid idea what they're getting into.

When it comes to self censoring, it's called being socially calibrated. Cause in real world, sometimes, saying wrong thing to wrong person can get you free trip to trauma clinic. Words have consequences. Yes, freedom of speech is great, you can say almost everything. But it doesn't give you immunity from other people's reactions. You have right to say, I have right to not listen to you. Even on social media. Everyone of us has tools to remove content we don't like from our feeds. Block, unfollow, etc.
 

I really questioned the appropriateness of those books. I haven't read any of them, so on an individual basis the books themselves might be fine, but I'm not sure the Warhammer 40k is a setting is one that should be introduced to kids between the ages of 8-12. Gotta hook 'em early I guess.
I think it relates to its Britishness. The US has a tendency to be more protective towards what is considered suitable for children. The complete ban on lethality in the D&D cartoon is an example. Compare to Thunderbirds. Characters usually don’t die, but people are shooting guns at each other. See Lady Penelope blow up the Hood’s car with a rocket in the first episode.
 

I think it relates to its Britishness. The US has a tendency to be more protective towards what is considered suitable for children. The complete ban on lethality in the D&D cartoon is an example. Compare to Thunderbirds. Characters usually don’t die, but people are shooting guns at each other. See Lady Penelope blow up the Hood’s car with a rocket in the first episode.
Here in Sweden it's been an enigma at least since I was a teen in the 80ies how the US can vomit out incredibly violent media (combined with bonkers non-existent gun laws), but showing a nipple shakes the nation. All the ongoing book bans etc still basically seems to concern showing real and metaphorical nipples, while you can buy guns in vending machines. It's a moral weighting that's hard to wrap one's head around as a north European.
 

Here in Sweden it's been an enigma at least since I was a teen in the 80ies how the US can vomit out incredibly violent media (combined with bonkers non-existent gun laws), but showing a nipple shakes the nation. All the ongoing book bans etc still basically seems to concern showing real and metaphorical nipples, while you can buy guns in vending machines. It's a moral weighting that's hard to wrap one's head around as a north European.
Not just Sweden.
 

As an American currently living in Canada, I'm not sure that the practicality of your sentiment is in actual practice.

The bigotry is differently directed than what I'm used to in the states, but it is quite healthy and folks are quite willing to discuss how they feel about "those people."

I'm not sure that there is some magical post bigotry land that can look down upon all those other people still wallowing in their archaic prejudices.

You aren't likely to see people marching through the street with Nazi flags because they will get arrested.
 

You aren't likely to see people marching through the street with Nazi flags because they will get arrested.
I was at a fall festival this past September with a fella in a full SS uniform. My office has “Freedom Convoy” posters all over—and I work for a government agency. To that end, several of the security have visible Rooster tats with “Proud of your boy” rockers. I’ve only been living in Ontario since August mind you.

I can say that I have never seen anything close to this in my home of NC in the public in the 45 years I lived there. I can barely remember seeing Klansmen in parades in the early 1980s, but that’s about as close as I can get.

As for Europe, I played a popular MMO for years in a mostly EU group which from 2010 until I left went from enjoying the tropes of fascism to being quite fascist. Which tracked with the overall recruiting of mostly young men in gaming spaces into far right ideologies over the same period.

As to finger wagging by Europeans towards Americans regarding our own history of racism, I’ve always (in an admittedly whataboutism manner) asked about the treatment of the Roma, which is usually replied to with, “well, you don’t understand, the Roma are different. <insert justification for racism>.”

Again, let’s not try to pluck specks from each others eyes here while ignoring the logs in our own.
 

Here in Sweden it's been an enigma at least since I was a teen in the 80ies how the US can vomit out incredibly violent media (combined with bonkers non-existent gun laws), but showing a nipple shakes the nation. All the ongoing book bans etc still basically seems to concern showing real and metaphorical nipples, while you can buy guns in vending machines. It's a moral weighting that's hard to wrap one's head around as a north European.

Yeah... And this is why I am always a bit cautious in these sort of discussions around art and sexualisation etc. Like I absolutely do not deny that the history of this hobby has had a lot of sexism and lot of art has been rather questionable, but there is also this American puritan streak that seem to see all sort of nudity or references to sexuality (which are not the same thing) as inherently suspicious or even immoral. As a Nordic person, I see these things rather differently.
 

Glad you mentioned Roma people. Boy, this will be long one.

I grew up in neighborhood with significant Roma population. I speak some language (not Romani Chib, Roma in Croatia speak different language, form of archaic Romanian, called bajaški). They, among themselves, are not unified, they are more tribal, so to speak. In short, it's complicated. I have Romani friends, my cousin dated Romani girl, been to couple of their weddings. If you are honest and respectful, they respect you back and treat you like one of their own. You cross one, whole family is after you.

Also, Romani is ethnicity, not a race (to be pedantic).

It's true, Romani people suffer from discrimination. No point in denying it. It's still problem. One of big problems is integration into broader society. Some of their cultural norms are very problematic ( underage marriages and pregnancies, blood feuds). Also, although elementary school is mandatory by law, they tend to drop out due to pressure from their parents and child protective services can't really do anything. While lots of them work legitimate jobs ( mostly in collecting recyclable metals), fair amount of them earn in grey to black area ( reselling stolen goods, begging etc). Lots of them live outside of system (no IDs, no drivers license, no official documents, some don't even have certificate of birth). They also have reputation of settling disputes violently ( and i can attest to that personally, still have scars from few altercations i had with some of them in my youth).

It's unfortunate, but it cuts both ways. Yes, we as majority need to drop some stereotypes and treat them better, but they also need to start embracing norms and laws of country. In essence, it's not racial per se, it's more socio economic problem.
 

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